VIP: Very Ignorant People

Ignorant of Planning Law

Ignorant of that the law should apply to everyone

Ignorant of Slavery

LOL. Like the VIP tag. It makes me sick what is it coming to these people just keep getting away with all this. I have vowed to attend any marches etc re all things Dale Farm we need to do some thing I just wish some one would tell me what. Is there anything planned to help those poor residents that are suffering all this?

"Some children have stopped attending school through bullying and prejudice".

I was bullied throughout my entire school career because I 'had no dad'. I was chased home from the village primary school by a yelling pack more times than I care to remember. It was a little better once I went to grammar school because no one knew my family. I still got 4 'O' levels (now GCSEs), qualified as a nurse and midwife and went to university as a mature student.

My husband was bullied unmercifully throughout his school career - anti-semitic bullying in his case. He served an apprenticeship as a mechanical engineer and had a career as a sales manager until our industrial based disappeared.

My eldest granddaughter has been bullied because she's gay and dyslexic. She's now a local authority Youth Worker and has been an instructor in her local Sea Cadets.

None of us ever used bullying as an excuse not to attend school but then, for our generation, education was seen as a way out of poverty. I'm not sure that's true any more. It seems to be an optional extra in some people's minds!

This might be a little off thread here, but it is related to former posts (including one of the above) and needed saying...

RESPONSE TO "DOSSER" ARTICLES

One can only assume that it is becoming difficult to find things to accuse Gypsies of these days. So the paranoid fanatacists among us now have to resort to the realm of pure fantasy in a desperate attempt to keep the fires of prejudice burning at all costs.

On the subject of "dossers" - just in case there are any gullible idiots out there who might consider newspaper articles akin to the gospel, and actually believe the inflamatory reports which have distorted the facts out of all proportion. This is irresponsible journalism at its worst. It is an abuse of the so called "freedom of the press."

Anyone growing up in the Romany world, knows the word "dosser" means "casual worker." I.E. INDIVIDUALS WHO ACCEPT SHORT TERM EMPLOYMENT VOLUNTARILY IN RETURN FOR AN AGREED UPON RATE OF REMUNERATION. An arrangement which could be terminated by either party at will. GYPSIES DO NOT KEEP SLAVES.

Historically, if a gypsy was lucky enough to obtain work in which he needed help (and had no children or relatives nearby of appropriate age) he would have no choice but to recruit one or more helpers as a last resort. A generation ago not many people wanted to work for gypsies, so obviously the people who agreed to do so, were ones, down on their luck, who really had no better alternative. Many of these were indeed tramps and other societal rejects. Frequently, they had nowhere else to live, so they were often offered lodging in addition to monetary wages (largely just to ensure that they turned up in the morning). This informal & MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL arrangement would usually last as long as the job did, although sometimes working relationships did form and the individual stayed for months at a time. It was and is a perfectly legitimate contractual agreement, entered into voluntarily, and subject to termination at any time by either party.

It shouldn't take genius level IQ to recognize the complete absence of logic in the articles. Even at first glance, common sense should tell you that gypsies never had the facilities to engage in any kind of system of slavery. The very word "slave" suggests some form of restraint or captivity. How do you keep captives in a couple of already overcrowded carvans which you can't even park anywhere for long, under the intense scrutiny of the police, and the even more hawkeyed village busybodies. And that is only one of the more obvious aspects for consideration, there are many others, too lengthy for discussion here.

Of course, it doesn't matter that this kind of arrangement parallels the usual employer/worker relationship up and down the length of the country (and the world at large), but lets ignore that because this is too good an opportunity to take a perfectly commonplace practice, distort and debase it, use a colloquial term to make it seem exceptional, ET VOILA ....use it as ammunition against the Gypsies.

Having said all that, even if there is some truth in some reports of abuses in recent times, those cases, disturbing though they may be, are almost certainly statiscially less frequent that the cases of harrassment and bullying and threatening, sexual and otherwise which occur in workplaces elsewhere on a daily basis. It should have been correctly identified and reported as a human problem, and not particularly associated with Gypsies or travellers.

But I suppose the opportunity to do so was just too tempting to resist.

Gypsy Woman wrote:
This might be a little off thread here, but it is related to former posts (including one of the above) and needed saying... RESPONSE TO "DOSSER" ARTICLES One can only assume that it is becoming difficult to find things to accuse Gypsies of these days. So the paranoid fanatacists among us now have to resort to the realm of pure fantasy in a desperate attempt to keep the fires of prejudice burning at all costs. On the subject of "dossers" - just in case there are any gullible idiots out there who might consider newspaper articles akin to the gospel, and actually believe the inflamatory reports which have distorted the facts out of all proportion. This is irresponsible journalism at its worst. It is an abuse of the so called "freedom of the press." Anyone growing up in the Romany world, knows the word "dosser" means "casual worker." I.E. INDIVIDUALS WHO ACCEPT SHORT TERM EMPLOYMENT VOLUNTARILY IN RETURN FOR AN AGREED UPON RATE OF REMUNERATION. An arrangement which could be terminated by either party at will. GYPSIES DO NOT KEEP SLAVES. Historically, if a gypsy was lucky enough to obtain work in which he needed help (and had no children or relatives nearby of appropriate age) he would have no choice but to recruit one or more helpers as a last resort. A generation ago not many people wanted to work for gypsies, so obviously the people who agreed to do so, were ones, down on their luck, who really had no better alternative. Many of these were indeed tramps and other societal rejects. Frequently, they had nowhere else to live, so they were often offered lodging in addition to monetary wages (largely just to ensure that they turned up in the morning). This informal & MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL arrangement would usually last as long as the job did, although sometimes working relationships did form and the individual stayed for months at a time. It was and is a perfectly legitimate contractual agreement, entered into voluntarily, and subject to termination at any time by either party. It shouldn't take genius level IQ to recognize the complete absence of logic in the articles. Even at first glance, common sense should tell you that gypsies never had the facilities to engage in any kind of system of slavery. The very word "slave" suggests some form of restraint or captivity. How do you keep captives in a couple of already overcrowded carvans which you can't even park anywhere for long, under the intense scrutiny of the police, and the even more hawkeyed village busybodies. And that is only one of the more obvious aspects for consideration, there are many others, too lengthy for discussion here. Of course, it doesn't matter that this kind of arrangement parallels the usual employer/worker relationship up and down the length of the country (and the world at large), but lets ignore that because this is too good an opportunity to take a perfectly commonplace practice, distort and debase it, use a colloquial term to make it seem exceptional, ET VOILA ....use it as ammunition against the Gypsies. Having said all that, even if there is some truth in some reports of abuses in recent times, those cases, disturbing though they may be, are almost certainly statiscially less frequent that the cases of harrassment and bullying and threatening, sexual and otherwise which occur in workplaces elsewhere on a daily basis. It should have been correctly identified and reported as a human problem, and not particularly associated with Gypsies or travellers. But I suppose the opportunity to do so was just too tempting to resist.

Y A W N

Well done Gypsy woman.

I am fed up of the COWARDS on here always bleating on about Pikeys and Gyppos but NONE of them have the guts to actually say this face to face.

They all feel safe on an anonymous forum though.

Good for you and the rest of you, not all of us house dwellers hate you. Some of us think you deserve a chance.

Gypsy Woman wrote:
This might be a little off thread here, but it is related to former posts (including one of the above) and needed saying... RESPONSE TO "DOSSER" ARTICLES One can only assume that it is becoming difficult to find things to accuse Gypsies of these days. So the paranoid fanatacists among us now have to resort to the realm of pure fantasy in a desperate attempt to keep the fires of prejudice burning at all costs. On the subject of "dossers" - just in case there are any gullible idiots out there who might consider newspaper articles akin to the gospel, and actually believe the inflamatory reports which have distorted the facts out of all proportion. This is irresponsible journalism at its worst. It is an abuse of the so called "freedom of the press." Anyone growing up in the Romany world, knows the word "dosser" means "casual worker." I.E. INDIVIDUALS WHO ACCEPT SHORT TERM EMPLOYMENT VOLUNTARILY IN RETURN FOR AN AGREED UPON RATE OF REMUNERATION. An arrangement which could be terminated by either party at will. GYPSIES DO NOT KEEP SLAVES. Historically, if a gypsy was lucky enough to obtain work in which he needed help (and had no children or relatives nearby of appropriate age) he would have no choice but to recruit one or more helpers as a last resort. A generation ago not many people wanted to work for gypsies, so obviously the people who agreed to do so, were ones, down on their luck, who really had no better alternative. Many of these were indeed tramps and other societal rejects. Frequently, they had nowhere else to live, so they were often offered lodging in addition to monetary wages (largely just to ensure that they turned up in the morning). This informal & MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL arrangement would usually last as long as the job did, although sometimes working relationships did form and the individual stayed for months at a time. It was and is a perfectly legitimate contractual agreement, entered into voluntarily, and subject to termination at any time by either party. It shouldn't take genius level IQ to recognize the complete absence of logic in the articles. Even at first glance, common sense should tell you that gypsies never had the facilities to engage in any kind of system of slavery. The very word "slave" suggests some form of restraint or captivity. How do you keep captives in a couple of already overcrowded carvans which you can't even park anywhere for long, under the intense scrutiny of the police, and the even more hawkeyed village busybodies. And that is only one of the more obvious aspects for consideration, there are many others, too lengthy for discussion here. Of course, it doesn't matter that this kind of arrangement parallels the usual employer/worker relationship up and down the length of the country (and the world at large), but lets ignore that because this is too good an opportunity to take a perfectly commonplace practice, distort and debase it, use a colloquial term to make it seem exceptional, ET VOILA ....use it as ammunition against the Gypsies. Having said all that, even if there is some truth in some reports of abuses in recent times, those cases, disturbing though they may be, are almost certainly statiscially less frequent that the cases of harrassment and bullying and threatening, sexual and otherwise which occur in workplaces elsewhere on a daily basis. It should have been correctly identified and reported as a human problem, and not particularly associated with Gypsies or travellers. But I suppose the opportunity to do so was just too tempting to resist.

You are as much a gypsy woman as i am the pope....!

Debor wrote:
Well done Gypsy woman. I am fed up of the COWARDS on here always bleating on about Pikeys and Gyppos but NONE of them have the guts to actually say this face to face. They all feel safe on an anonymous forum though. Good for you and the rest of you, not all of us house dwellers hate you. Some of us think you deserve a chance.

You are a complete pr@t Grillo.

I was always brought up with the saying, if you have anything to say to someone, "say it to their face, if you don't have the guts to do that then keep quiet".

Debor wrote:
I was always brought up with the saying, if you have anything to say to someone, "say it to their face, if you don't have the guts to do that then keep quiet".

Thats a strong statement from someone who post's under an allias, "debor"
Perhaps you should practice what you preach and keep quite..

M.Tyler of Oak Road

I expected to be attacked from all sides for that post, I wasn't even sure the Echo would allow it. But your comment took me by surprise.

I am curious to know what makes you say that?

Debor wrote:
I was always brought up with the saying, if you have anything to say to someone, "say it to their face, if you don't have the guts to do that then keep quiet".

So why do you post under a host of different pseudonyms then you div.

Why are you using the anagram of 'Bored'?

I've seen you post under so many names, claiming to live at various different towns but your posts always give you away, the same old 'Grillo' using his bully boy tactics.

Pathetic.

Debor wrote:
Well done Gypsy woman. I am fed up of the COWARDS on here always bleating on about Pikeys and Gyppos but NONE of them have the guts to actually say this face to face. They all feel safe on an anonymous forum though. Good for you and the rest of you, not all of us house dwellers hate you. Some of us think you deserve a chance.

Replying to your own posts..

Equally pathetic!

Gypsy Woman wrote:
This might be a little off thread here, but it is related to former posts (including one of the above) and needed saying... RESPONSE TO \"DOSSER\" ARTICLES One can only assume that it is becoming difficult to find things to accuse Gypsies of these days. So the paranoid fanatacists among us now have to resort to the realm of pure fantasy in a desperate attempt to keep the fires of prejudice burning at all costs. On the subject of \"dossers\" - just in case there are any gullible idiots out there who might consider newspaper articles akin to the gospel, and actually believe the inflamatory reports which have distorted the facts out of all proportion. This is irresponsible journalism at its worst. It is an abuse of the so called \"freedom of the press.\" Anyone growing up in the Romany world, knows the word \"dosser\" means \"casual worker.\" I.E. INDIVIDUALS WHO ACCEPT SHORT TERM EMPLOYMENT VOLUNTARILY IN RETURN FOR AN AGREED UPON RATE OF REMUNERATION. An arrangement which could be terminated by either party at will. GYPSIES DO NOT KEEP SLAVES. Historically, if a gypsy was lucky enough to obtain work in which he needed help (and had no children or relatives nearby of appropriate age) he would have no choice but to recruit one or more helpers as a last resort. A generation ago not many people wanted to work for gypsies, so obviously the people who agreed to do so, were ones, down on their luck, who really had no better alternative. Many of these were indeed tramps and other societal rejects. Frequently, they had nowhere else to live, so they were often offered lodging in addition to monetary wages (largely just to ensure that they turned up in the morning). This informal & MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL arrangement would usually last as long as the job did, although sometimes working relationships did form and the individual stayed for months at a time. It was and is a perfectly legitimate contractual agreement, entered into voluntarily, and subject to termination at any time by either party. It shouldn\'t take genius level IQ to recognize the complete absence of logic in the articles. Even at first glance, common sense should tell you that gypsies never had the facilities to engage in any kind of system of slavery. The very word \"slave\" suggests some form of restraint or captivity. How do you keep captives in a couple of already overcrowded carvans which you can\'t even park anywhere for long, under the intense scrutiny of the police, and the even more hawkeyed village busybodies. And that is only one of the more obvious aspects for consideration, there are many others, too lengthy for discussion here. Of course, it doesn\'t matter that this kind of arrangement parallels the usual employer/worker relationship up and down the length of the country (and the world at large), but lets ignore that because this is too good an opportunity to take a perfectly commonplace practice, distort and debase it, use a colloquial term to make it seem exceptional, ET VOILA ....use it as ammunition against the Gypsies. Having said all that, even if there is some truth in some reports of abuses in recent times, those cases, disturbing though they may be, are almost certainly statiscially less frequent that the cases of harrassment and bullying and threatening, sexual and otherwise which occur in workplaces elsewhere on a daily basis. It should have been correctly identified and reported as a human problem, and not particularly associated with Gypsies or travellers. But I suppose the opportunity to do so was just too tempting to resist.

Good for you darling, it is about time one of your own spoke up on here. For far to long this has been a sounding board for "pikey haters" there expression not mine. I have visited Dale Farm and found it most welcoming!

The fact that the rest of us cant do as we like makes people cross. Ehy cant you see this? The law is there and should be there for us all. They bring upon themselves the hatred people have for them.

Gypsy woman, the people at Dale Farm are NOT gypsies, they are NOT Romany they are NOT Diddakoi. They are tax dodging economic migrants who came to England from Ireland because they don't like the Euro and they don't like new tax laws in Eire.

I grew up living next door to settled English gypsies, I went to school with and played with their kids and did work for them in the summer holidays.

There is a massive difference between gypsies, and Irish people who choose to leave their homes in Rathkeale, County Limerick, Eire and come to England to sponge off the tax payer.

No problem with gypsies employing other people, as long as they are doing so legally, i.e. they are insured, they pay tax etc. and live in legal accommodation.

m.tyler wrote:

Debor wrote:
I was always brought up with the saying, if you have anything to say to someone, "say it to their face, if you don't have the guts to do that then keep quiet".

Thats a strong statement from someone who post's under an allias, "debor"
Perhaps you should practice what you preach and keep quite..

M. Tyler, you may wish to check your:

Spelling.
Grammar.
Use of Apostrophes.

Or maybe I should keep "quite"?

Debor is short for Deborah! My family all call me Debor for short.

Debor wrote:

m.tyler wrote:

Debor wrote: I was always brought up with the saying, if you have anything to say to someone, "say it to their face, if you don't have the guts to do that then keep quiet".

Thats a strong statement from someone who post's under an allias, "debor" Perhaps you should practice what you preach and keep quite..

M. Tyler, you may wish to check your: Spelling. Grammar. Use of Apostrophes. Or maybe I should keep "quite"? Debor is short for Deborah! My family all call me Debor for short.

If you are going to lie, make it plausible.

Posted by: Anti-Vicar, The Priory on 10:39pm Sun 1 Jul 07

Bored wrote: I'm not into riddles Joker. Why don't you just SAY what you mean?

Norman, you are not clever enough. Only the Vicar will be able to decipher it, but I will give YOU a clue, look at the "uppercases" ;-) Did you know Bored is an anagram of Debor? which could be short for Deborah.

Grillo/Av/AB,

You were always obsessed with grammar and apostrophes...Ask Tina.

Andrew

My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm.

The articles went beyond travellers and pointed a finger at Romany culture with the ludicrous suggestion that "dosser" meant "slave" and that slavery was common practice. Not sure if the word is of Romany origin, but it is a term definitely used by Romanies at least a generation before travellers adopted it.

The next thing you know, we'll accused of slave mongering on the same scale as the British Empire as obviously there no holds barred here.

Many Gypsies I know, did no more than chuckle at it, but I found it intolerable, and was compelled to set the record straight.

The Romany peoples' lack of response in these cases is the reason that they are being targeted in the first place. Its always easy to attack those who don't bother to defend themselves. Unscrupulous journalists find them an easy target.

Debor - You seem to have taken a bit of heat for your supportive comments, but I thank you for them anyway.


Lisa Jensen - It was pleasure to see your post. I know that you are well liked and highly respected in many quarters. Your words of encouragement were much appreciated.

Lisa Jensen wrote:

Gypsy Woman wrote: This might be a little off thread here, but it is related to former posts (including one of the above) and needed saying... RESPONSE TO \"DOSSER\" ARTICLES One can only assume that it is becoming difficult to find things to accuse Gypsies of these days. So the paranoid fanatacists among us now have to resort to the realm of pure fantasy in a desperate attempt to keep the fires of prejudice burning at all costs. On the subject of \"dossers\" - just in case there are any gullible idiots out there who might consider newspaper articles akin to the gospel, and actually believe the inflamatory reports which have distorted the facts out of all proportion. This is irresponsible journalism at its worst. It is an abuse of the so called \"freedom of the press.\" Anyone growing up in the Romany world, knows the word \"dosser\" means \"casual worker.\" I.E. INDIVIDUALS WHO ACCEPT SHORT TERM EMPLOYMENT VOLUNTARILY IN RETURN FOR AN AGREED UPON RATE OF REMUNERATION. An arrangement which could be terminated by either party at will. GYPSIES DO NOT KEEP SLAVES. Historically, if a gypsy was lucky enough to obtain work in which he needed help (and had no children or relatives nearby of appropriate age) he would have no choice but to recruit one or more helpers as a last resort. A generation ago not many people wanted to work for gypsies, so obviously the people who agreed to do so, were ones, down on their luck, who really had no better alternative. Many of these were indeed tramps and other societal rejects. Frequently, they had nowhere else to live, so they were often offered lodging in addition to monetary wages (largely just to ensure that they turned up in the morning). This informal & MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL arrangement would usually last as long as the job did, although sometimes working relationships did form and the individual stayed for months at a time. It was and is a perfectly legitimate contractual agreement, entered into voluntarily, and subject to termination at any time by either party. It shouldn\'t take genius level IQ to recognize the complete absence of logic in the articles. Even at first glance, common sense should tell you that gypsies never had the facilities to engage in any kind of system of slavery. The very word \"slave\" suggests some form of restraint or captivity. How do you keep captives in a couple of already overcrowded carvans which you can\'t even park anywhere for long, under the intense scrutiny of the police, and the even more hawkeyed village busybodies. And that is only one of the more obvious aspects for consideration, there are many others, too lengthy for discussion here. Of course, it doesn\'t matter that this kind of arrangement parallels the usual employer/worker relationship up and down the length of the country (and the world at large), but lets ignore that because this is too good an opportunity to take a perfectly commonplace practice, distort and debase it, use a colloquial term to make it seem exceptional, ET VOILA ....use it as ammunition against the Gypsies. Having said all that, even if there is some truth in some reports of abuses in recent times, those cases, disturbing though they may be, are almost certainly statiscially less frequent that the cases of harrassment and bullying and threatening, sexual and otherwise which occur in workplaces elsewhere on a daily basis. It should have been correctly identified and reported as a human problem, and not particularly associated with Gypsies or travellers. But I suppose the opportunity to do so was just too tempting to resist.

Good for you darling, it is about time one of your own spoke up on here. For far to long this has been a sounding board for "pikey haters" there expression not mine. I have visited Dale Farm and found it most welcoming!

Y A W N.

The disgusting so called travellers/gypsies living illegally in Hovefields are and have been running illegal businesses and are continuing to do so. Our postman was shot at on several occasions and we still do not have a postal service some 4 years later. There has been an arson attack on one family. Several people have been shot at including horses and dogs. Four families have been burgled recently. The police have evidence of children carrying guns and firing them in Hovefields. These people do have slaves and dossers working for them, we live here, we have seen them. The Echo has printed the truth, just because it doesn't suit some people they have tried to twist it but you cannot change the truth. Gypsy Woman or whoever you are we are sick of these people abusing the laws of our country. You have spouted a load of rubbish and I hope anyone with one iota of sense will ignore you and see the truth that the Echo has printed.

Gypsy Woman wrote:
Debor - You seem to have taken a bit of heat for your supportive comments, but I thank you for them anyway. Lisa Jensen - It was pleasure to see your post. I know that you are well liked and highly respected in many quarters. Your words of encouragement were much appreciated.

Gypsy woman...my ar$e

Lisa Jensen wrote:

Gypsy Woman wrote: This might be a little off thread here, but it is related to former posts (including one of the above) and needed saying... RESPONSE TO \\\"DOSSER\\\" ARTICLES One can only assume that it is becoming difficult to find things to accuse Gypsies of these days. So the paranoid fanatacists among us now have to resort to the realm of pure fantasy in a desperate attempt to keep the fires of prejudice burning at all costs. On the subject of \\\"dossers\\\" - just in case there are any gullible idiots out there who might consider newspaper articles akin to the gospel, and actually believe the inflamatory reports which have distorted the facts out of all proportion. This is irresponsible journalism at its worst. It is an abuse of the so called \\\"freedom of the press.\\\" Anyone growing up in the Romany world, knows the word \\\"dosser\\\" means \\\"casual worker.\\\" I.E. INDIVIDUALS WHO ACCEPT SHORT TERM EMPLOYMENT VOLUNTARILY IN RETURN FOR AN AGREED UPON RATE OF REMUNERATION. An arrangement which could be terminated by either party at will. GYPSIES DO NOT KEEP SLAVES. Historically, if a gypsy was lucky enough to obtain work in which he needed help (and had no children or relatives nearby of appropriate age) he would have no choice but to recruit one or more helpers as a last resort. A generation ago not many people wanted to work for gypsies, so obviously the people who agreed to do so, were ones, down on their luck, who really had no better alternative. Many of these were indeed tramps and other societal rejects. Frequently, they had nowhere else to live, so they were often offered lodging in addition to monetary wages (largely just to ensure that they turned up in the morning). This informal & MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL arrangement would usually last as long as the job did, although sometimes working relationships did form and the individual stayed for months at a time. It was and is a perfectly legitimate contractual agreement, entered into voluntarily, and subject to termination at any time by either party. It shouldn\\\'t take genius level IQ to recognize the complete absence of logic in the articles. Even at first glance, common sense should tell you that gypsies never had the facilities to engage in any kind of system of slavery. The very word \\\"slave\\\" suggests some form of restraint or captivity. How do you keep captives in a couple of already overcrowded carvans which you can\\\'t even park anywhere for long, under the intense scrutiny of the police, and the even more hawkeyed village busybodies. And that is only one of the more obvious aspects for consideration, there are many others, too lengthy for discussion here. Of course, it doesn\\\'t matter that this kind of arrangement parallels the usual employer/worker relationship up and down the length of the country (and the world at large), but lets ignore that because this is too good an opportunity to take a perfectly commonplace practice, distort and debase it, use a colloquial term to make it seem exceptional, ET VOILA ....use it as ammunition against the Gypsies. Having said all that, even if there is some truth in some reports of abuses in recent times, those cases, disturbing though they may be, are almost certainly statiscially less frequent that the cases of harrassment and bullying and threatening, sexual and otherwise which occur in workplaces elsewhere on a daily basis. It should have been correctly identified and reported as a human problem, and not particularly associated with Gypsies or travellers. But I suppose the opportunity to do so was just too tempting to resist.

Good for you darling, it is about time one of your own spoke up on here. For far to long this has been a sounding board for \"pikey haters\" there expression not mine. I have visited Dale Farm and found it most welcoming!

Lisa, I thought you'd had problems with travellers recently, when they left an eyesore at Gunners Park, and also when it looked like your horses were about to be rustled?

Gypsy Woman wrote:
Andrew

My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm.

The articles went beyond travellers and pointed a finger at Romany culture with the ludicrous suggestion that \"dosser\" meant \"slave\" and that slavery was common practice. Not sure if the word is of Romany origin, but it is a term definitely used by Romanies at least a generation before travellers adopted it.

The next thing you know, we\'ll accused of slave mongering on the same scale as the British Empire as obviously there no holds barred here.

Many Gypsies I know, did no more than chuckle at it, but I found it intolerable, and was compelled to set the record straight.

The Romany peoples\' lack of response in these cases is the reason that they are being targeted in the first place. Its always easy to attack those who don\'t bother to defend themselves. Unscrupulous journalists find them an easy target.

You're right about one thing, GypsyWoman, you're in the wrong thread. There was another discussion following the Echo's investigative journalist's piece on the issue of so-called 'dossers'. This is not what is being discussed here.

You may be right, people may be doing work for others in return for board and lodging only. That isn't unknown and I doubt if anyone would take exception to it. It used to be a common situation for single women in the 19th century who had no means and no home of their own. However, I believe that what the Echo's journalist found was that some of the 'dossers' were vulnerable people and that some had been prevented from leaving. If people take on a job for board and lodging only, know what they are doing and can leave whenever they choose, that isn't slavery. If they are kept against their will and forced to jobs that they don't want to do, then, by definition, that IS slavery.

You mention 'slave-mongering on the scale of the British Empire'. It should be pointed out that the British Empire was the first empire in history to abolish slavery, so that any slave anywhere in the world was free the moment he or she reached any British land or a British ship at sea. This gave rise to e.g. the Boers' 'Great Trek' - the Dutch settlers of South Africa didn't want to stop keeping slaves, so they trekked across the Vaal River - Transvaal - or across the Drakensberg mountains where they could live the way they wanted i.e. keep slaves! It also gave rise to the 'Underground Railway' in North America as described in 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' where slaves knew that if they crossed into Canada from the southern states, they would be free.

However, be that as it may, you say 'My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm'. But this present thread IS about Dale Farm, and the indignation many people feel at this waste of public money, which could have been put to much better use in a hundred different places locally. It's said that the log cabin is to be used as a chapel. Well, when our church underwent extensive repairs and modernisation in recent years, we didn't ask for a grant from public funds. We got a loan from the central church funds, which has been paid back, and the rest of the money was raised in all kinds of ways. We also use the church hall as a venue for different groups, dance classes, you name it, and they pay us rent for the few hours each group uses the facility.

Children aren't in school because of bullying - well, I commented on that one above. They need IT lessons from a volunteer (hope he's been cleared by the CRB!) - again, all children learn IT skills from age 5 onwards. Women want to learn hairdressing and flower-arranging - I don't know about hairdressing, but there are flower-arranging classes in all Adult Community Colleges. So all these facilities already exist and don't need to be duplicated.

You mention the word 'culture'. Now, this word is fast becoming like a red rag to a bull. I actually supported equal opportunities legislation back in the 1970s - reason: I'd been discriminated against myself, as a woman, and so had my daughter who wanted to do 'boys' subjects' at school because she had an ambition to become an engineer. We invoked the new legislation on her behalf - successfully. We didn't ask for any money though, a grant from taxpayers' funds!

Time was, we English didn't feel the need to explain or define who we were or what our culture was. We were who we were, and if you want to live here you accept our ways. There were minorities, of course (I used to know genuine Gypsies in my youth!) but as long as minorities stayed minorities that was fine. We always had a 'live and let live' kind of outlook. Things have changed. Every minority group you can name wants its 'rights' and it wants some taxpayers' money, maybe to erect its own religious building, educate its children separately, you name it. And we English are told that we'll become a minority in our own ancestral homeland within 60 years.

There is ONE charity set up for the ethnic English - one only - and it's called the Steadfast Trust. www.steadfasttrust.o

rg.uk

So you will forgive me if I say: please don't tell me about your culture. I really am not interested in it. I have nothing against you, but keep your culture to yourself. I am finding that I have to defend MY culture, and that's something I never felt the need to do for many many years - but I do now.

We English are a fairly law-abiding lot. The main problem, pertinent to the present discussion, is that you can't just buy a piece of land and use it to live on, unless it's land which already has outline planning permission. Still less can you buy a piece of land, live on it and then invite your whole family and in-laws, aunts and cousins until in a few short years it becomes a mini-town. Especially if, as has been pointed out above, you already have property in another country i.e. Ireland but don't want to live there, or have access to council properties in another part of England i.e. Wolverhampton. If I started to sell unsafe foam sofas out of my back garden, the law would be down on me like a ton of bricks, and rightly so.

I haven't been to the Dale Farm site, but I've been told about it by others who know, e.g. Hovefields resident above. I have no reason to think that what he/she says is untrue.

My husband looked at the picture of the site including log cabin, printed in the Echo a few days ago, and said to me 'Did you notice the mess outside some of those mobile homes, close by that new log cabin?' I hadn't in particular, but when I looked, yes, it's there, and this is the basic reason why so many people oppose that site and dislike its residents. They make such a damned mess everywhere they go! This is our England, our 'green and pleasant land'. If you insist on living here then obey our rules, our laws and our standards.

Margaret Stoll wrote:

Gypsy Woman wrote:
Andrew

My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm.

The articles went beyond travellers and pointed a finger at Romany culture with the ludicrous suggestion that \"dosser\" meant \"slave\" and that slavery was common practice. Not sure if the word is of Romany origin, but it is a term definitely used by Romanies at least a generation before travellers adopted it.

The next thing you know, we\'ll accused of slave mongering on the same scale as the British Empire as obviously there no holds barred here.

Many Gypsies I know, did no more than chuckle at it, but I found it intolerable, and was compelled to set the record straight.

The Romany peoples\' lack of response in these cases is the reason that they are being targeted in the first place. Its always easy to attack those who don\'t bother to defend themselves. Unscrupulous journalists find them an easy target.

You're right about one thing, GypsyWoman, you're in the wrong thread. There was another discussion following the Echo's investigative journalist's piece on the issue of so-called 'dossers'. This is not what is being discussed here.

You may be right, people may be doing work for others in return for board and lodging only. That isn't unknown and I doubt if anyone would take exception to it. It used to be a common situation for single women in the 19th century who had no means and no home of their own. However, I believe that what the Echo's journalist found was that some of the 'dossers' were vulnerable people and that some had been prevented from leaving. If people take on a job for board and lodging only, know what they are doing and can leave whenever they choose, that isn't slavery. If they are kept against their will and forced to jobs that they don't want to do, then, by definition, that IS slavery.

You mention 'slave-mongering on the scale of the British Empire'. It should be pointed out that the British Empire was the first empire in history to abolish slavery, so that any slave anywhere in the world was free the moment he or she reached any British land or a British ship at sea. This gave rise to e.g. the Boers' 'Great Trek' - the Dutch settlers of South Africa didn't want to stop keeping slaves, so they trekked across the Vaal River - Transvaal - or across the Drakensberg mountains where they could live the way they wanted i.e. keep slaves! It also gave rise to the 'Underground Railway' in North America as described in 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' where slaves knew that if they crossed into Canada from the southern states, they would be free.

However, be that as it may, you say 'My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm'. But this present thread IS about Dale Farm, and the indignation many people feel at this waste of public money, which could have been put to much better use in a hundred different places locally. It's said that the log cabin is to be used as a chapel. Well, when our church underwent extensive repairs and modernisation in recent years, we didn't ask for a grant from public funds. We got a loan from the central church funds, which has been paid back, and the rest of the money was raised in all kinds of ways. We also use the church hall as a venue for different groups, dance classes, you name it, and they pay us rent for the few hours each group uses the facility.

Children aren't in school because of bullying - well, I commented on that one above. They need IT lessons from a volunteer (hope he's been cleared by the CRB!) - again, all children learn IT skills from age 5 onwards. Women want to learn hairdressing and flower-arranging - I don't know about hairdressing, but there are flower-arranging classes in all Adult Community Colleges. So all these facilities already exist and don't need to be duplicated.

You mention the word 'culture'. Now, this word is fast becoming like a red rag to a bull. I actually supported equal opportunities legislation back in the 1970s - reason: I'd been discriminated against myself, as a woman, and so had my daughter who wanted to do 'boys' subjects' at school because she had an ambition to become an engineer. We invoked the new legislation on her behalf - successfully. We didn't ask for any money though, a grant from taxpayers' funds!

Time was, we English didn't feel the need to explain or define who we were or what our culture was. We were who we were, and if you want to live here you accept our ways. There were minorities, of course (I used to know genuine Gypsies in my youth!) but as long as minorities stayed minorities that was fine. We always had a 'live and let live' kind of outlook. Things have changed. Every minority group you can name wants its 'rights' and it wants some taxpayers' money, maybe to erect its own religious building, educate its children separately, you name it. And we English are told that we'll become a minority in our own ancestral homeland within 60 years.

There is ONE charity set up for the ethnic English - one only - and it's called the Steadfast Trust. www.steadfasttrust.o

rg.uk

So you will forgive me if I say: please don't tell me about your culture. I really am not interested in it. I have nothing against you, but keep your culture to yourself. I am finding that I have to defend MY culture, and that's something I never felt the need to do for many many years - but I do now.

We English are a fairly law-abiding lot. The main problem, pertinent to the present discussion, is that you can't just buy a piece of land and use it to live on, unless it's land which already has outline planning permission. Still less can you buy a piece of land, live on it and then invite your whole family and in-laws, aunts and cousins until in a few short years it becomes a mini-town. Especially if, as has been pointed out above, you already have property in another country i.e. Ireland but don't want to live there, or have access to council properties in another part of England i.e. Wolverhampton. If I started to sell unsafe foam sofas out of my back garden, the law would be down on me like a ton of bricks, and rightly so.

I haven't been to the Dale Farm site, but I've been told about it by others who know, e.g. Hovefields resident above. I have no reason to think that what he/she says is untrue.

My husband looked at the picture of the site including log cabin, printed in the Echo a few days ago, and said to me 'Did you notice the mess outside some of those mobile homes, close by that new log cabin?' I hadn't in particular, but when I looked, yes, it's there, and this is the basic reason why so many people oppose that site and dislike its residents. They make such a damned mess everywhere they go! This is our England, our 'green and pleasant land'. If you insist on living here then obey our rules, our laws and our standards.

Well said. It sums it all up rather well.

I notice nobody tries to defend the law breaking and anti-social aspects of these Itinerants. It's all ethic minority (joke), and human rights claptrap.

And still we await the 'final' judgement!!!