Say ‘yes’ to Lidl and you will kill my firm

Echo: The site. The site.

A BUSINESSMAN says he will be forced to close his 30-year-old firm if a budget supermarket is allowed to open a store in Eastwood.

Raife Clarke, owner of Essex Timber & Plywood, in Rayleigh Road, says he faces a fight to survive if Lidl moves into a new store on the corner of Progress Road and Rayleigh Road.

A planning application from Lidl was turned down by Southend Council for the site, which includes the former Safestore warehouse, last September.

Planners ruled it would deprive the Progress Road industrial estate of valuable industrial land, and would increase traffic problems in the area. However, a new plan has now been submitted with a different design, offering 6,800sq ft of office space in a tower as part of the store.

This has been added in an effort to overcome objections to the loss of employment land.

Mr Clarke said: “The development will mean the closure of Essex Timber – a family firm that employs 14 people and has been on the site for more than 30 years.

“We have just taken on two new apprentices from Seetec College and have agreed to take three more this summer– bringing our total employed to 19 staff.”

He said the newplans should be rejected by the council for a number of reasons, including access issues over the busy Progress Road, a lack of parking spaces and concerns other businesses would also be forced to close because they couldn’t compete.

A rival bid from a consortium of businessmen, to turn the site into a business park, has also been launched.

Comments (35)

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1:08pm Wed 19 Mar 14

DogsMessInLeigh says...

So let me get this straight, Lidl will also buy up the wood place forcing it to close and make one massive big Lidl..? is the wood place also up for sale.? just looked on google map and if that the case it will be one big mutha of a store.
So let me get this straight, Lidl will also buy up the wood place forcing it to close and make one massive big Lidl..? is the wood place also up for sale.? just looked on google map and if that the case it will be one big mutha of a store. DogsMessInLeigh
  • Score: 16

1:29pm Wed 19 Mar 14

stopmoaning1 says...

I may just be tired, but I've read this several times and can't se why a Lidl store will force a timber company out of business.
Come along 'Senior Reporter' Mr. Weinfass, let's have the full story please.
I may just be tired, but I've read this several times and can't se why a Lidl store will force a timber company out of business. Come along 'Senior Reporter' Mr. Weinfass, let's have the full story please. stopmoaning1
  • Score: 68

1:46pm Wed 19 Mar 14

hatch201 says...

My family has been in the timber business for many year now ( I however dont work for the family company ) and i cant for the life of me see how a supermarket opening will stop this business operating. End of the day their client base will not change in any way or form and with extra people coming to the area to use the supermarket it may even increase their profile and create new custom
My family has been in the timber business for many year now ( I however dont work for the family company ) and i cant for the life of me see how a supermarket opening will stop this business operating. End of the day their client base will not change in any way or form and with extra people coming to the area to use the supermarket it may even increase their profile and create new custom hatch201
  • Score: 45

1:54pm Wed 19 Mar 14

supermadmax says...

Someone should start a petition in favour of Lidl, I'd sign. I also suggest a boycott of this timber firm.
Someone should start a petition in favour of Lidl, I'd sign. I also suggest a boycott of this timber firm. supermadmax
  • Score: 13

2:21pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Horace Wimpole says...

What's this chap been smoking?
What's this chap been smoking? Horace Wimpole
  • Score: 15

2:33pm Wed 19 Mar 14

w-jback says...

Mr Clarke said: “The development will mean the closure of Essex Timber – a family firm that employs 14 people and has been on the site for more than 30 years.


Under how many different guises?
[quote]Mr Clarke said: “The development will mean the closure of Essex Timber – a family firm that employs 14 people and has been on the site for more than 30 years. [/quote] Under how many different guises? w-jback
  • Score: 15

2:43pm Wed 19 Mar 14

w-jback says...

hatch201 wrote:
My family has been in the timber business for many year now ( I however dont work for the family company ) and i cant for the life of me see how a supermarket opening will stop this business operating. End of the day their client base will not change in any way or form and with extra people coming to the area to use the supermarket it may even increase their profile and create new custom
I think lidls plan would also use some of the site currently used by eastwood essex timber store
[quote][p][bold]hatch201[/bold] wrote: My family has been in the timber business for many year now ( I however dont work for the family company ) and i cant for the life of me see how a supermarket opening will stop this business operating. End of the day their client base will not change in any way or form and with extra people coming to the area to use the supermarket it may even increase their profile and create new custom[/p][/quote]I think lidls plan would also use some of the site currently used by eastwood essex timber store w-jback
  • Score: 41

2:56pm Wed 19 Mar 14

DogsMessInLeigh says...

w-jback wrote:
hatch201 wrote:
My family has been in the timber business for many year now ( I however dont work for the family company ) and i cant for the life of me see how a supermarket opening will stop this business operating. End of the day their client base will not change in any way or form and with extra people coming to the area to use the supermarket it may even increase their profile and create new custom
I think lidls plan would also use some of the site currently used by eastwood essex timber store
so it is for sale then..? Lidl can't just take it for their own use can they, they can't compulsory purchase it.
why can we not have the full story.
[quote][p][bold]w-jback[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]hatch201[/bold] wrote: My family has been in the timber business for many year now ( I however dont work for the family company ) and i cant for the life of me see how a supermarket opening will stop this business operating. End of the day their client base will not change in any way or form and with extra people coming to the area to use the supermarket it may even increase their profile and create new custom[/p][/quote]I think lidls plan would also use some of the site currently used by eastwood essex timber store[/p][/quote]so it is for sale then..? Lidl can't just take it for their own use can they, they can't compulsory purchase it. why can we not have the full story. DogsMessInLeigh
  • Score: 25

3:30pm Wed 19 Mar 14

jolllyboy says...

Lidl will employ people. SBC rejecting the plans without telling us who the 'business men' are leaves me wondering who they are, who has an interest and who knows who.
The majority of people want a Lidl is SBC going to go against the majority yet again?
Lidl will employ people. SBC rejecting the plans without telling us who the 'business men' are leaves me wondering who they are, who has an interest and who knows who. The majority of people want a Lidl is SBC going to go against the majority yet again? jolllyboy
  • Score: 19

3:31pm Wed 19 Mar 14

jo7ers says...

Do Lidi's sell timber ? I'm just wondering how a food retailer is competition to a timber yard...
Do Lidi's sell timber ? I'm just wondering how a food retailer is competition to a timber yard... jo7ers
  • Score: 29

3:55pm Wed 19 Mar 14

ThisYear says...

stopmoaning1 wrote:
I may just be tired, but I've read this several times and can't se why a Lidl store will force a timber company out of business.
Come along 'Senior Reporter' Mr. Weinfass, let's have the full story please.
The timber man might be selling 'chips' to his staff and is worried they will go next door to Lidl's for sandwiches instead.
[quote][p][bold]stopmoaning1[/bold] wrote: I may just be tired, but I've read this several times and can't se why a Lidl store will force a timber company out of business. Come along 'Senior Reporter' Mr. Weinfass, let's have the full story please.[/p][/quote]The timber man might be selling 'chips' to his staff and is worried they will go next door to Lidl's for sandwiches instead. ThisYear
  • Score: 10

4:05pm Wed 19 Mar 14

andy:) says...

So its not just me then who is totally puzzled by this story.

IU cant think of any items that Lidl sell that would put it into competetion with the Timber store.

Lidl would no doubt have to accomodate extra parking so I doubt that would be an issue.

As pointed out above, Lidl can't just compulsary purchase extra land or buildings.

Even IF the Timber business had to move, plenty of buisnesses move all the time for reasons of cost, etc and survive.

Its a total non-story.
So its not just me then who is totally puzzled by this story. IU cant think of any items that Lidl sell that would put it into competetion with the Timber store. Lidl would no doubt have to accomodate extra parking so I doubt that would be an issue. As pointed out above, Lidl can't just compulsary purchase extra land or buildings. Even IF the Timber business had to move, plenty of buisnesses move all the time for reasons of cost, etc and survive. Its a total non-story. andy:)
  • Score: 25

4:08pm Wed 19 Mar 14

carnmountyouknowitmakessense says...

The timber company, is worried about splinter groups, shaving off profits....
The timber company, is worried about splinter groups, shaving off profits.... carnmountyouknowitmakessense
  • Score: 22

4:23pm Wed 19 Mar 14

runwellian says...

Where is the greatest demand, for timber or for food?

I am sure Lidl will employ more staff than the timber yard does and we need more cheaper food shops to get rid of the 'multis' who have dominated every town.

I would have thought bringing more folk not the vicinity would actually help any business but suspect there is an underlying reason why this company doesn't wan't Lidl as a neighbour!

I vote fro Lidl, I need food not wood!
Where is the greatest demand, for timber or for food? I am sure Lidl will employ more staff than the timber yard does and we need more cheaper food shops to get rid of the 'multis' who have dominated every town. I would have thought bringing more folk not the vicinity would actually help any business but suspect there is an underlying reason why this company doesn't wan't Lidl as a neighbour! I vote fro Lidl, I need food not wood! runwellian
  • Score: 10

4:30pm Wed 19 Mar 14

SARFENDMAN says...

stopmoaning1 wrote:
I may just be tired, but I've read this several times and can't se why a Lidl store will force a timber company out of business.
Come along 'Senior Reporter' Mr. Weinfass, let's have the full story please.
The Woodentops are making a comeback and maybe are looking for competitive pricing?
[quote][p][bold]stopmoaning1[/bold] wrote: I may just be tired, but I've read this several times and can't se why a Lidl store will force a timber company out of business. Come along 'Senior Reporter' Mr. Weinfass, let's have the full story please.[/p][/quote]The Woodentops are making a comeback and maybe are looking for competitive pricing? SARFENDMAN
  • Score: 6

5:35pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Southend Andy says...

Can't understand how lidl will 'force' him to close. Is he another one after money?
Can't understand how lidl will 'force' him to close. Is he another one after money? Southend Andy
  • Score: 8

6:02pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Letmetryagain says...

It's asking too much of the Echo to give us the full story.
As others have said, I don't see how it will affect Eastwood Timber.
Unless it's to do with parking.
I assume the plans are for a demolition of the existing building, then erecting a building with a smaller footprint to allow for plenty of parking ?
We use Lidl a lot, they are a good store.
It's asking too much of the Echo to give us the full story. As others have said, I don't see how it will affect Eastwood Timber. Unless it's to do with parking. I assume the plans are for a demolition of the existing building, then erecting a building with a smaller footprint to allow for plenty of parking ? We use Lidl a lot, they are a good store. Letmetryagain
  • Score: 11

9:30pm Wed 19 Mar 14

emcee says...

If I recall, the timber merchant is on part of the site that will be developed by Lidl. However, as the timber merchant is not really site dependant there is no reason he cannot move it elsewhere. There are plenty of suitable empty sites around the Southend area and there may even be some suitable premises available off or near Progress Road itself.
Allowing Lidl to open on the site would be to the greater good of the local population than keeping the timber yard on site.
Even though I understand that there maybe huge upheaval afoot, and for any business that can be a right pain in the neck, but Mr Clarke should be putting his efforts into planning a move for his business rather than whine to the papers with his, if I can be a tad honest, slightly over dramatic pleas of woe. Start planning early and the move will be less painful.
If I recall, the timber merchant is on part of the site that will be developed by Lidl. However, as the timber merchant is not really site dependant there is no reason he cannot move it elsewhere. There are plenty of suitable empty sites around the Southend area and there may even be some suitable premises available off or near Progress Road itself. Allowing Lidl to open on the site would be to the greater good of the local population than keeping the timber yard on site. Even though I understand that there maybe huge upheaval afoot, and for any business that can be a right pain in the neck, but Mr Clarke should be putting his efforts into planning a move for his business rather than whine to the papers with his, if I can be a tad honest, slightly over dramatic pleas of woe. Start planning early and the move will be less painful. emcee
  • Score: 10

11:05pm Wed 19 Mar 14

pendulum says...

I'm going to assume that at the moment, there is places for the timber yard's customers to park, and he is worried that Lidl customers will use all the spaces if they move in (shared parking). I'm having to assume that because there is one massive part of the story missing and it's the only rational explanation I can think of. I wonder if the Echo journalist could update the article with the essential information they left out.
I'm going to assume that at the moment, there is places for the timber yard's customers to park, and he is worried that Lidl customers will use all the spaces if they move in (shared parking). I'm having to assume that because there is one massive part of the story missing and it's the only rational explanation I can think of. I wonder if the Echo journalist could update the article with the essential information they left out. pendulum
  • Score: 12

11:05pm Wed 19 Mar 14

pendulum says...

I've just seen it... at the top of the article... "Senior reporter"... *Sigh*!
I've just seen it... at the top of the article... "Senior reporter"... *Sigh*! pendulum
  • Score: 9

9:12am Thu 20 Mar 14

Letmetryagain says...

I've nothing against Eastwood Timber, they offer a good service, and I have used them a lot in the past.. The main problem they have, is customer parking. It's awkward to get in and out of, and there isn't much of it.

It would no doubt cost them a lot to move, but they would probably benefit in the long run.
I've nothing against Eastwood Timber, they offer a good service, and I have used them a lot in the past.. The main problem they have, is customer parking. It's awkward to get in and out of, and there isn't much of it. It would no doubt cost them a lot to move, but they would probably benefit in the long run. Letmetryagain
  • Score: 6

9:28am Thu 20 Mar 14

Bonham says...

This owner has gone bust many times. perhaps he is after compensation.
This owner has gone bust many times. perhaps he is after compensation. Bonham
  • Score: 3

9:32am Thu 20 Mar 14

DogsMessInLeigh says...

Letmetryagain wrote:
I've nothing against Eastwood Timber, they offer a good service, and I have used them a lot in the past.. The main problem they have, is customer parking. It's awkward to get in and out of, and there isn't much of it.

It would no doubt cost them a lot to move, but they would probably benefit in the long run.
so sounds more like the timber place will loose the extra parking slots that they might have been using, those parking slots that belong to the other building and not them, surely they knew there was limited parking when they took the lease on.
[quote][p][bold]Letmetryagain[/bold] wrote: I've nothing against Eastwood Timber, they offer a good service, and I have used them a lot in the past.. The main problem they have, is customer parking. It's awkward to get in and out of, and there isn't much of it. It would no doubt cost them a lot to move, but they would probably benefit in the long run.[/p][/quote]so sounds more like the timber place will loose the extra parking slots that they might have been using, those parking slots that belong to the other building and not them, surely they knew there was limited parking when they took the lease on. DogsMessInLeigh
  • Score: 4

11:11am Thu 20 Mar 14

Letmetryagain says...

I don't think so. The parking areas are totally separate.
I don't think so. The parking areas are totally separate. Letmetryagain
  • Score: 1

12:36pm Thu 20 Mar 14

localresidentr says...

Hi All,
Lidl will need to buy both the land that has safe store on it and the plots of land that have Essex Timber on it. They will than put their store where the wood yard is and the car park where the Safe store is.

Anyone who lives in the area will be aware of the traffic problems on progress road and this supermarket will create more problems. Look at how long it takes to get out Tesco on to the A127 or out of the Aldi in the London Road?

Re stores selling groceries, there are 15 stores with in a 2 mile area of the proposed site, a lot of them local independent businesses, if Lidl open here it will probably force the smaller ones to shut - is this fair?

Re Timber yards, we have a very few in the area and if this one goes it's your local builder which will have to travel further afield making his working day longer.

Put a Lidl on a site that is safe and not too detrimental to it's local area.
Hi All, Lidl will need to buy both the land that has safe store on it and the plots of land that have Essex Timber on it. They will than put their store where the wood yard is and the car park where the Safe store is. Anyone who lives in the area will be aware of the traffic problems on progress road and this supermarket will create more problems. Look at how long it takes to get out Tesco on to the A127 or out of the Aldi in the London Road? Re stores selling groceries, there are 15 stores with in a 2 mile area of the proposed site, a lot of them local independent businesses, if Lidl open here it will probably force the smaller ones to shut - is this fair? Re Timber yards, we have a very few in the area and if this one goes it's your local builder which will have to travel further afield making his working day longer. Put a Lidl on a site that is safe and not too detrimental to it's local area. localresidentr
  • Score: -6

7:19pm Thu 20 Mar 14

DogsMessInLeigh says...

Look at how long it takes to get out Tesco on to the A127 or out of the Aldi in the London Road?
____________________
____________
Aldi in London Road....not long to get in or out, i go a lot at all differant times.

Tesco A127...only at knock off time due to The Banking giant chucking out its staff.....any other time its ok.
Look at how long it takes to get out Tesco on to the A127 or out of the Aldi in the London Road? ____________________ ____________ Aldi in London Road....not long to get in or out, i go a lot at all differant times. Tesco A127...only at knock off time due to The Banking giant chucking out its staff.....any other time its ok. DogsMessInLeigh
  • Score: 4

7:58pm Thu 20 Mar 14

_Lotus_ says...

jo7ers wrote:
Do Lidi's sell timber ? I'm just wondering how a food retailer is competition to a timber yard...
lol this is precisely what I was about to type, you beat me to it.

Fully agree, in fact this whole article confuses me.

Why would a Lidl store put a timber yard out of business?
[quote][p][bold]jo7ers[/bold] wrote: Do Lidi's sell timber ? I'm just wondering how a food retailer is competition to a timber yard...[/p][/quote]lol this is precisely what I was about to type, you beat me to it. Fully agree, in fact this whole article confuses me. Why would a Lidl store put a timber yard out of business? _Lotus_
  • Score: 4

10:22pm Thu 20 Mar 14

Southend65 says...

As the owner of a timber yard, he wood say that, woodn't he ?

My wife suggested I go for acupuncture treatment to cure me from making annoying timber puns. I can't see how that woodwork.
As the owner of a timber yard, he wood say that, woodn't he ? My wife suggested I go for acupuncture treatment to cure me from making annoying timber puns. I can't see how that woodwork. Southend65
  • Score: 7

9:32pm Fri 21 Mar 14

_Lotus_ says...

Southend65 wrote:
As the owner of a timber yard, he wood say that, woodn't he ?

My wife suggested I go for acupuncture treatment to cure me from making annoying timber puns. I can't see how that woodwork.
hmm saw that one coming, right chip off the old block.
[quote][p][bold]Southend65[/bold] wrote: As the owner of a timber yard, he wood say that, woodn't he ? My wife suggested I go for acupuncture treatment to cure me from making annoying timber puns. I can't see how that woodwork.[/p][/quote]hmm saw that one coming, right chip off the old block. _Lotus_
  • Score: 1

7:29am Sat 22 Mar 14

Bigmama1 says...

jolllyboy wrote:
Lidl will employ people. SBC rejecting the plans without telling us who the 'business men' are leaves me wondering who they are, who has an interest and who knows who.
The majority of people want a Lidl is SBC going to go against the majority yet again?
It's a business consortium headed by Byfords. Supposedly the consortium wants to build/convert small units for businesses. Why don't they take over the various empty small units which already exist along Progress Road? Something fishy in their application I think. As far as Eastwood Wood Yard is concerned, what the hell has this got to do with a FOOD outlet? Hundreds and thousands want this Lidl store and it will bring more jobs to the area and also remove the present eyesore. Will someone please start a petition to this council now? Someone on the council is very friendly with the "Consortium" I believe? Say no more.
[quote][p][bold]jolllyboy[/bold] wrote: Lidl will employ people. SBC rejecting the plans without telling us who the 'business men' are leaves me wondering who they are, who has an interest and who knows who. The majority of people want a Lidl is SBC going to go against the majority yet again?[/p][/quote]It's a business consortium headed by Byfords. Supposedly the consortium wants to build/convert small units for businesses. Why don't they take over the various empty small units which already exist along Progress Road? Something fishy in their application I think. As far as Eastwood Wood Yard is concerned, what the hell has this got to do with a FOOD outlet? Hundreds and thousands want this Lidl store and it will bring more jobs to the area and also remove the present eyesore. Will someone please start a petition to this council now? Someone on the council is very friendly with the "Consortium" I believe? Say no more. Bigmama1
  • Score: 3

7:41am Sat 22 Mar 14

Bigmama1 says...

w-jback wrote:
hatch201 wrote:
My family has been in the timber business for many year now ( I however dont work for the family company ) and i cant for the life of me see how a supermarket opening will stop this business operating. End of the day their client base will not change in any way or form and with extra people coming to the area to use the supermarket it may even increase their profile and create new custom
I think lidls plan would also use some of the site currently used by eastwood essex timber store
The Lidl site is a freehold site so if Eastwood Timber is encroaching on other land then yes they will have to get off of it! There is a very suspicious story about the Consortium also. All wealthy business men head by the Byford family. All of these business people have a lot more money to shop at expensive places. Us "morons" aren't so lucky and welcome Lidl or Aldi in our midst. I congratulate the Safe Store business for not giving in to blackmail as they support this application by Lidl.
[quote][p][bold]w-jback[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]hatch201[/bold] wrote: My family has been in the timber business for many year now ( I however dont work for the family company ) and i cant for the life of me see how a supermarket opening will stop this business operating. End of the day their client base will not change in any way or form and with extra people coming to the area to use the supermarket it may even increase their profile and create new custom[/p][/quote]I think lidls plan would also use some of the site currently used by eastwood essex timber store[/p][/quote]The Lidl site is a freehold site so if Eastwood Timber is encroaching on other land then yes they will have to get off of it! There is a very suspicious story about the Consortium also. All wealthy business men head by the Byford family. All of these business people have a lot more money to shop at expensive places. Us "morons" aren't so lucky and welcome Lidl or Aldi in our midst. I congratulate the Safe Store business for not giving in to blackmail as they support this application by Lidl. Bigmama1
  • Score: 6

9:12am Sat 22 Mar 14

gangsta_len says...

ooo a tower and another supermarket. Just what Eastwood needs. Time to move out of Essex.
ooo a tower and another supermarket. Just what Eastwood needs. Time to move out of Essex. gangsta_len
  • Score: -5

1:47pm Mon 24 Mar 14

Bigmama1 says...

localresidentr wrote:
Hi All,
Lidl will need to buy both the land that has safe store on it and the plots of land that have Essex Timber on it. They will than put their store where the wood yard is and the car park where the Safe store is.

Anyone who lives in the area will be aware of the traffic problems on progress road and this supermarket will create more problems. Look at how long it takes to get out Tesco on to the A127 or out of the Aldi in the London Road?

Re stores selling groceries, there are 15 stores with in a 2 mile area of the proposed site, a lot of them local independent businesses, if Lidl open here it will probably force the smaller ones to shut - is this fair?

Re Timber yards, we have a very few in the area and if this one goes it's your local builder which will have to travel further afield making his working day longer.

Put a Lidl on a site that is safe and not too detrimental to it's local area.
I haven't read anywhere that it is Lidls intention to buy out Eastwood Timber for customer parking? As a local resident I don't see very many people visiting Eastwood Timber. Maybe it would be a good idea for them to sell to Lidl and then relocate elsewhere. Their customers will travel to them if Eastwood Timber is that good. As for traffic congestion, this mainly occurs at commuting times, as in most areas anyway. Is there a petition or council meeting we can attend in support?
[quote][p][bold]localresidentr[/bold] wrote: Hi All, Lidl will need to buy both the land that has safe store on it and the plots of land that have Essex Timber on it. They will than put their store where the wood yard is and the car park where the Safe store is. Anyone who lives in the area will be aware of the traffic problems on progress road and this supermarket will create more problems. Look at how long it takes to get out Tesco on to the A127 or out of the Aldi in the London Road? Re stores selling groceries, there are 15 stores with in a 2 mile area of the proposed site, a lot of them local independent businesses, if Lidl open here it will probably force the smaller ones to shut - is this fair? Re Timber yards, we have a very few in the area and if this one goes it's your local builder which will have to travel further afield making his working day longer. Put a Lidl on a site that is safe and not too detrimental to it's local area.[/p][/quote]I haven't read anywhere that it is Lidls intention to buy out Eastwood Timber for customer parking? As a local resident I don't see very many people visiting Eastwood Timber. Maybe it would be a good idea for them to sell to Lidl and then relocate elsewhere. Their customers will travel to them if Eastwood Timber is that good. As for traffic congestion, this mainly occurs at commuting times, as in most areas anyway. Is there a petition or council meeting we can attend in support? Bigmama1
  • Score: 6

11:26am Tue 25 Mar 14

imnotanimby says...

The council should be working for their council tax payers and put their needs first. Many people probably don't even realise that there is a timber yard there as they would never have had cause to use it - Lidl will put them on the map! Lidl would be of much more use to local people then a timber yard.
The council should be working for their council tax payers and put their needs first. Many people probably don't even realise that there is a timber yard there as they would never have had cause to use it - Lidl will put them on the map! Lidl would be of much more use to local people then a timber yard. imnotanimby
  • Score: 6

6:43pm Thu 27 Mar 14

Yachtsman says...

Suggest people look at Mr Clarke's business record then make up their own minds
Suggest people look at Mr Clarke's business record then make up their own minds Yachtsman
  • Score: 3

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