VIP: Very Ignorant People

Ignorant of Planning Law

Ignorant of that the law should apply to everyone

Ignorant of Slavery

LOL. Like the VIP tag. It makes me sick what is it coming to these people just keep getting away with all this. I have vowed to attend any marches etc re all things Dale Farm we need to do some thing I just wish some one would tell me what. Is there anything planned to help those poor residents that are suffering all this?

"Some children have stopped attending school through bullying and prejudice".

I was bullied throughout my entire school career because I 'had no dad'. I was chased home from the village primary school by a yelling pack more times than I care to remember. It was a little better once I went to grammar school because no one knew my family. I still got 4 'O' levels (now GCSEs), qualified as a nurse and midwife and went to university as a mature student.

My husband was bullied unmercifully throughout his school career - anti-semitic bullying in his case. He served an apprenticeship as a mechanical engineer and had a career as a sales manager until our industrial based disappeared.

My eldest granddaughter has been bullied because she's gay and dyslexic. She's now a local authority Youth Worker and has been an instructor in her local Sea Cadets.

None of us ever used bullying as an excuse not to attend school but then, for our generation, education was seen as a way out of poverty. I'm not sure that's true any more. It seems to be an optional extra in some people's minds!

This might be a little off thread here, but it is related to former posts (including one of the above) and needed saying...

RESPONSE TO "DOSSER" ARTICLES

One can only assume that it is becoming difficult to find things to accuse Gypsies of these days. So the paranoid fanatacists among us now have to resort to the realm of pure fantasy in a desperate attempt to keep the fires of prejudice burning at all costs.

On the subject of "dossers" - just in case there are any gullible idiots out there who might consider newspaper articles akin to the gospel, and actually believe the inflamatory reports which have distorted the facts out of all proportion. This is irresponsible journalism at its worst. It is an abuse of the so called "freedom of the press."

Anyone growing up in the Romany world, knows the word "dosser" means "casual worker." I.E. INDIVIDUALS WHO ACCEPT SHORT TERM EMPLOYMENT VOLUNTARILY IN RETURN FOR AN AGREED UPON RATE OF REMUNERATION. An arrangement which could be terminated by either party at will. GYPSIES DO NOT KEEP SLAVES.

Historically, if a gypsy was lucky enough to obtain work in which he needed help (and had no children or relatives nearby of appropriate age) he would have no choice but to recruit one or more helpers as a last resort. A generation ago not many people wanted to work for gypsies, so obviously the people who agreed to do so, were ones, down on their luck, who really had no better alternative. Many of these were indeed tramps and other societal rejects. Frequently, they had nowhere else to live, so they were often offered lodging in addition to monetary wages (largely just to ensure that they turned up in the morning). This informal & MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL arrangement would usually last as long as the job did, although sometimes working relationships did form and the individual stayed for months at a time. It was and is a perfectly legitimate contractual agreement, entered into voluntarily, and subject to termination at any time by either party.

It shouldn't take genius level IQ to recognize the complete absence of logic in the articles. Even at first glance, common sense should tell you that gypsies never had the facilities to engage in any kind of system of slavery. The very word "slave" suggests some form of restraint or captivity. How do you keep captives in a couple of already overcrowded carvans which you can't even park anywhere for long, under the intense scrutiny of the police, and the even more hawkeyed village busybodies. And that is only one of the more obvious aspects for consideration, there are many others, too lengthy for discussion here.

Of course, it doesn't matter that this kind of arrangement parallels the usual employer/worker relationship up and down the length of the country (and the world at large), but lets ignore that because this is too good an opportunity to take a perfectly commonplace practice, distort and debase it, use a colloquial term to make it seem exceptional, ET VOILA ....use it as ammunition against the Gypsies.

Having said all that, even if there is some truth in some reports of abuses in recent times, those cases, disturbing though they may be, are almost certainly statiscially less frequent that the cases of harrassment and bullying and threatening, sexual and otherwise which occur in workplaces elsewhere on a daily basis. It should have been correctly identified and reported as a human problem, and not particularly associated with Gypsies or travellers.

But I suppose the opportunity to do so was just too tempting to resist.

Gypsy Woman wrote:
This might be a little off thread here, but it is related to former posts (including one of the above) and needed saying... RESPONSE TO "DOSSER" ARTICLES One can only assume that it is becoming difficult to find things to accuse Gypsies of these days. So the paranoid fanatacists among us now have to resort to the realm of pure fantasy in a desperate attempt to keep the fires of prejudice burning at all costs. On the subject of "dossers" - just in case there are any gullible idiots out there who might consider newspaper articles akin to the gospel, and actually believe the inflamatory reports which have distorted the facts out of all proportion. This is irresponsible journalism at its worst. It is an abuse of the so called "freedom of the press." Anyone growing up in the Romany world, knows the word "dosser" means "casual worker." I.E. INDIVIDUALS WHO ACCEPT SHORT TERM EMPLOYMENT VOLUNTARILY IN RETURN FOR AN AGREED UPON RATE OF REMUNERATION. An arrangement which could be terminated by either party at will. GYPSIES DO NOT KEEP SLAVES. Historically, if a gypsy was lucky enough to obtain work in which he needed help (and had no children or relatives nearby of appropriate age) he would have no choice but to recruit one or more helpers as a last resort. A generation ago not many people wanted to work for gypsies, so obviously the people who agreed to do so, were ones, down on their luck, who really had no better alternative. Many of these were indeed tramps and other societal rejects. Frequently, they had nowhere else to live, so they were often offered lodging in addition to monetary wages (largely just to ensure that they turned up in the morning). This informal & MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL arrangement would usually last as long as the job did, although sometimes working relationships did form and the individual stayed for months at a time. It was and is a perfectly legitimate contractual agreement, entered into voluntarily, and subject to termination at any time by either party. It shouldn't take genius level IQ to recognize the complete absence of logic in the articles. Even at first glance, common sense should tell you that gypsies never had the facilities to engage in any kind of system of slavery. The very word "slave" suggests some form of restraint or captivity. How do you keep captives in a couple of already overcrowded carvans which you can't even park anywhere for long, under the intense scrutiny of the police, and the even more hawkeyed village busybodies. And that is only one of the more obvious aspects for consideration, there are many others, too lengthy for discussion here. Of course, it doesn't matter that this kind of arrangement parallels the usual employer/worker relationship up and down the length of the country (and the world at large), but lets ignore that because this is too good an opportunity to take a perfectly commonplace practice, distort and debase it, use a colloquial term to make it seem exceptional, ET VOILA ....use it as ammunition against the Gypsies. Having said all that, even if there is some truth in some reports of abuses in recent times, those cases, disturbing though they may be, are almost certainly statiscially less frequent that the cases of harrassment and bullying and threatening, sexual and otherwise which occur in workplaces elsewhere on a daily basis. It should have been correctly identified and reported as a human problem, and not particularly associated with Gypsies or travellers. But I suppose the opportunity to do so was just too tempting to resist.

Y A W N

Well done Gypsy woman.

I am fed up of the COWARDS on here always bleating on about Pikeys and Gyppos but NONE of them have the guts to actually say this face to face.

They all feel safe on an anonymous forum though.

Good for you and the rest of you, not all of us house dwellers hate you. Some of us think you deserve a chance.

Gypsy Woman wrote:
This might be a little off thread here, but it is related to former posts (including one of the above) and needed saying... RESPONSE TO "DOSSER" ARTICLES One can only assume that it is becoming difficult to find things to accuse Gypsies of these days. So the paranoid fanatacists among us now have to resort to the realm of pure fantasy in a desperate attempt to keep the fires of prejudice burning at all costs. On the subject of "dossers" - just in case there are any gullible idiots out there who might consider newspaper articles akin to the gospel, and actually believe the inflamatory reports which have distorted the facts out of all proportion. This is irresponsible journalism at its worst. It is an abuse of the so called "freedom of the press." Anyone growing up in the Romany world, knows the word "dosser" means "casual worker." I.E. INDIVIDUALS WHO ACCEPT SHORT TERM EMPLOYMENT VOLUNTARILY IN RETURN FOR AN AGREED UPON RATE OF REMUNERATION. An arrangement which could be terminated by either party at will. GYPSIES DO NOT KEEP SLAVES. Historically, if a gypsy was lucky enough to obtain work in which he needed help (and had no children or relatives nearby of appropriate age) he would have no choice but to recruit one or more helpers as a last resort. A generation ago not many people wanted to work for gypsies, so obviously the people who agreed to do so, were ones, down on their luck, who really had no better alternative. Many of these were indeed tramps and other societal rejects. Frequently, they had nowhere else to live, so they were often offered lodging in addition to monetary wages (largely just to ensure that they turned up in the morning). This informal & MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL arrangement would usually last as long as the job did, although sometimes working relationships did form and the individual stayed for months at a time. It was and is a perfectly legitimate contractual agreement, entered into voluntarily, and subject to termination at any time by either party. It shouldn't take genius level IQ to recognize the complete absence of logic in the articles. Even at first glance, common sense should tell you that gypsies never had the facilities to engage in any kind of system of slavery. The very word "slave" suggests some form of restraint or captivity. How do you keep captives in a couple of already overcrowded carvans which you can't even park anywhere for long, under the intense scrutiny of the police, and the even more hawkeyed village busybodies. And that is only one of the more obvious aspects for consideration, there are many others, too lengthy for discussion here. Of course, it doesn't matter that this kind of arrangement parallels the usual employer/worker relationship up and down the length of the country (and the world at large), but lets ignore that because this is too good an opportunity to take a perfectly commonplace practice, distort and debase it, use a colloquial term to make it seem exceptional, ET VOILA ....use it as ammunition against the Gypsies. Having said all that, even if there is some truth in some reports of abuses in recent times, those cases, disturbing though they may be, are almost certainly statiscially less frequent that the cases of harrassment and bullying and threatening, sexual and otherwise which occur in workplaces elsewhere on a daily basis. It should have been correctly identified and reported as a human problem, and not particularly associated with Gypsies or travellers. But I suppose the opportunity to do so was just too tempting to resist.

You are as much a gypsy woman as i am the pope....!

Debor wrote:
Well done Gypsy woman. I am fed up of the COWARDS on here always bleating on about Pikeys and Gyppos but NONE of them have the guts to actually say this face to face. They all feel safe on an anonymous forum though. Good for you and the rest of you, not all of us house dwellers hate you. Some of us think you deserve a chance.

You are a complete pr@t Grillo.

I was always brought up with the saying, if you have anything to say to someone, "say it to their face, if you don't have the guts to do that then keep quiet".

Debor wrote:
I was always brought up with the saying, if you have anything to say to someone, "say it to their face, if you don't have the guts to do that then keep quiet".

Thats a strong statement from someone who post's under an allias, "debor"
Perhaps you should practice what you preach and keep quite..

M.Tyler of Oak Road

I expected to be attacked from all sides for that post, I wasn't even sure the Echo would allow it. But your comment took me by surprise.

I am curious to know what makes you say that?

Debor wrote:
I was always brought up with the saying, if you have anything to say to someone, "say it to their face, if you don't have the guts to do that then keep quiet".

So why do you post under a host of different pseudonyms then you div.

Why are you using the anagram of 'Bored'?

I've seen you post under so many names, claiming to live at various different towns but your posts always give you away, the same old 'Grillo' using his bully boy tactics.

Pathetic.

Debor wrote:
Well done Gypsy woman. I am fed up of the COWARDS on here always bleating on about Pikeys and Gyppos but NONE of them have the guts to actually say this face to face. They all feel safe on an anonymous forum though. Good for you and the rest of you, not all of us house dwellers hate you. Some of us think you deserve a chance.

Replying to your own posts..

Equally pathetic!

Gypsy Woman wrote:
This might be a little off thread here, but it is related to former posts (including one of the above) and needed saying... RESPONSE TO \"DOSSER\" ARTICLES One can only assume that it is becoming difficult to find things to accuse Gypsies of these days. So the paranoid fanatacists among us now have to resort to the realm of pure fantasy in a desperate attempt to keep the fires of prejudice burning at all costs. On the subject of \"dossers\" - just in case there are any gullible idiots out there who might consider newspaper articles akin to the gospel, and actually believe the inflamatory reports which have distorted the facts out of all proportion. This is irresponsible journalism at its worst. It is an abuse of the so called \"freedom of the press.\" Anyone growing up in the Romany world, knows the word \"dosser\" means \"casual worker.\" I.E. INDIVIDUALS WHO ACCEPT SHORT TERM EMPLOYMENT VOLUNTARILY IN RETURN FOR AN AGREED UPON RATE OF REMUNERATION. An arrangement which could be terminated by either party at will. GYPSIES DO NOT KEEP SLAVES. Historically, if a gypsy was lucky enough to obtain work in which he needed help (and had no children or relatives nearby of appropriate age) he would have no choice but to recruit one or more helpers as a last resort. A generation ago not many people wanted to work for gypsies, so obviously the people who agreed to do so, were ones, down on their luck, who really had no better alternative. Many of these were indeed tramps and other societal rejects. Frequently, they had nowhere else to live, so they were often offered lodging in addition to monetary wages (largely just to ensure that they turned up in the morning). This informal & MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL arrangement would usually last as long as the job did, although sometimes working relationships did form and the individual stayed for months at a time. It was and is a perfectly legitimate contractual agreement, entered into voluntarily, and subject to termination at any time by either party. It shouldn\'t take genius level IQ to recognize the complete absence of logic in the articles. Even at first glance, common sense should tell you that gypsies never had the facilities to engage in any kind of system of slavery. The very word \"slave\" suggests some form of restraint or captivity. How do you keep captives in a couple of already overcrowded carvans which you can\'t even park anywhere for long, under the intense scrutiny of the police, and the even more hawkeyed village busybodies. And that is only one of the more obvious aspects for consideration, there are many others, too lengthy for discussion here. Of course, it doesn\'t matter that this kind of arrangement parallels the usual employer/worker relationship up and down the length of the country (and the world at large), but lets ignore that because this is too good an opportunity to take a perfectly commonplace practice, distort and debase it, use a colloquial term to make it seem exceptional, ET VOILA ....use it as ammunition against the Gypsies. Having said all that, even if there is some truth in some reports of abuses in recent times, those cases, disturbing though they may be, are almost certainly statiscially less frequent that the cases of harrassment and bullying and threatening, sexual and otherwise which occur in workplaces elsewhere on a daily basis. It should have been correctly identified and reported as a human problem, and not particularly associated with Gypsies or travellers. But I suppose the opportunity to do so was just too tempting to resist.

Good for you darling, it is about time one of your own spoke up on here. For far to long this has been a sounding board for "pikey haters" there expression not mine. I have visited Dale Farm and found it most welcoming!

The fact that the rest of us cant do as we like makes people cross. Ehy cant you see this? The law is there and should be there for us all. They bring upon themselves the hatred people have for them.

Gypsy woman, the people at Dale Farm are NOT gypsies, they are NOT Romany they are NOT Diddakoi. They are tax dodging economic migrants who came to England from Ireland because they don't like the Euro and they don't like new tax laws in Eire.

I grew up living next door to settled English gypsies, I went to school with and played with their kids and did work for them in the summer holidays.

There is a massive difference between gypsies, and Irish people who choose to leave their homes in Rathkeale, County Limerick, Eire and come to England to sponge off the tax payer.

No problem with gypsies employing other people, as long as they are doing so legally, i.e. they are insured, they pay tax etc. and live in legal accommodation.

m.tyler wrote:

Debor wrote:
I was always brought up with the saying, if you have anything to say to someone, "say it to their face, if you don't have the guts to do that then keep quiet".

Thats a strong statement from someone who post's under an allias, "debor"
Perhaps you should practice what you preach and keep quite..

M. Tyler, you may wish to check your:

Spelling.
Grammar.
Use of Apostrophes.

Or maybe I should keep "quite"?

Debor is short for Deborah! My family all call me Debor for short.

Debor wrote:

m.tyler wrote:

Debor wrote: I was always brought up with the saying, if you have anything to say to someone, "say it to their face, if you don't have the guts to do that then keep quiet".

Thats a strong statement from someone who post's under an allias, "debor" Perhaps you should practice what you preach and keep quite..

M. Tyler, you may wish to check your: Spelling. Grammar. Use of Apostrophes. Or maybe I should keep "quite"? Debor is short for Deborah! My family all call me Debor for short.

If you are going to lie, make it plausible.

Posted by: Anti-Vicar, The Priory on 10:39pm Sun 1 Jul 07

Bored wrote: I'm not into riddles Joker. Why don't you just SAY what you mean?

Norman, you are not clever enough. Only the Vicar will be able to decipher it, but I will give YOU a clue, look at the "uppercases" ;-) Did you know Bored is an anagram of Debor? which could be short for Deborah.

Grillo/Av/AB,

You were always obsessed with grammar and apostrophes...Ask Tina.

Andrew

My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm.

The articles went beyond travellers and pointed a finger at Romany culture with the ludicrous suggestion that "dosser" meant "slave" and that slavery was common practice. Not sure if the word is of Romany origin, but it is a term definitely used by Romanies at least a generation before travellers adopted it.

The next thing you know, we'll accused of slave mongering on the same scale as the British Empire as obviously there no holds barred here.

Many Gypsies I know, did no more than chuckle at it, but I found it intolerable, and was compelled to set the record straight.

The Romany peoples' lack of response in these cases is the reason that they are being targeted in the first place. Its always easy to attack those who don't bother to defend themselves. Unscrupulous journalists find them an easy target.

Debor - You seem to have taken a bit of heat for your supportive comments, but I thank you for them anyway.


Lisa Jensen - It was pleasure to see your post. I know that you are well liked and highly respected in many quarters. Your words of encouragement were much appreciated.

Lisa Jensen wrote:

Gypsy Woman wrote: This might be a little off thread here, but it is related to former posts (including one of the above) and needed saying... RESPONSE TO \"DOSSER\" ARTICLES One can only assume that it is becoming difficult to find things to accuse Gypsies of these days. So the paranoid fanatacists among us now have to resort to the realm of pure fantasy in a desperate attempt to keep the fires of prejudice burning at all costs. On the subject of \"dossers\" - just in case there are any gullible idiots out there who might consider newspaper articles akin to the gospel, and actually believe the inflamatory reports which have distorted the facts out of all proportion. This is irresponsible journalism at its worst. It is an abuse of the so called \"freedom of the press.\" Anyone growing up in the Romany world, knows the word \"dosser\" means \"casual worker.\" I.E. INDIVIDUALS WHO ACCEPT SHORT TERM EMPLOYMENT VOLUNTARILY IN RETURN FOR AN AGREED UPON RATE OF REMUNERATION. An arrangement which could be terminated by either party at will. GYPSIES DO NOT KEEP SLAVES. Historically, if a gypsy was lucky enough to obtain work in which he needed help (and had no children or relatives nearby of appropriate age) he would have no choice but to recruit one or more helpers as a last resort. A generation ago not many people wanted to work for gypsies, so obviously the people who agreed to do so, were ones, down on their luck, who really had no better alternative. Many of these were indeed tramps and other societal rejects. Frequently, they had nowhere else to live, so they were often offered lodging in addition to monetary wages (largely just to ensure that they turned up in the morning). This informal & MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL arrangement would usually last as long as the job did, although sometimes working relationships did form and the individual stayed for months at a time. It was and is a perfectly legitimate contractual agreement, entered into voluntarily, and subject to termination at any time by either party. It shouldn\'t take genius level IQ to recognize the complete absence of logic in the articles. Even at first glance, common sense should tell you that gypsies never had the facilities to engage in any kind of system of slavery. The very word \"slave\" suggests some form of restraint or captivity. How do you keep captives in a couple of already overcrowded carvans which you can\'t even park anywhere for long, under the intense scrutiny of the police, and the even more hawkeyed village busybodies. And that is only one of the more obvious aspects for consideration, there are many others, too lengthy for discussion here. Of course, it doesn\'t matter that this kind of arrangement parallels the usual employer/worker relationship up and down the length of the country (and the world at large), but lets ignore that because this is too good an opportunity to take a perfectly commonplace practice, distort and debase it, use a colloquial term to make it seem exceptional, ET VOILA ....use it as ammunition against the Gypsies. Having said all that, even if there is some truth in some reports of abuses in recent times, those cases, disturbing though they may be, are almost certainly statiscially less frequent that the cases of harrassment and bullying and threatening, sexual and otherwise which occur in workplaces elsewhere on a daily basis. It should have been correctly identified and reported as a human problem, and not particularly associated with Gypsies or travellers. But I suppose the opportunity to do so was just too tempting to resist.

Good for you darling, it is about time one of your own spoke up on here. For far to long this has been a sounding board for "pikey haters" there expression not mine. I have visited Dale Farm and found it most welcoming!

Y A W N.

The disgusting so called travellers/gypsies living illegally in Hovefields are and have been running illegal businesses and are continuing to do so. Our postman was shot at on several occasions and we still do not have a postal service some 4 years later. There has been an arson attack on one family. Several people have been shot at including horses and dogs. Four families have been burgled recently. The police have evidence of children carrying guns and firing them in Hovefields. These people do have slaves and dossers working for them, we live here, we have seen them. The Echo has printed the truth, just because it doesn't suit some people they have tried to twist it but you cannot change the truth. Gypsy Woman or whoever you are we are sick of these people abusing the laws of our country. You have spouted a load of rubbish and I hope anyone with one iota of sense will ignore you and see the truth that the Echo has printed.

Gypsy Woman wrote:
Debor - You seem to have taken a bit of heat for your supportive comments, but I thank you for them anyway. Lisa Jensen - It was pleasure to see your post. I know that you are well liked and highly respected in many quarters. Your words of encouragement were much appreciated.

Gypsy woman...my ar$e

Lisa Jensen wrote:

Gypsy Woman wrote: This might be a little off thread here, but it is related to former posts (including one of the above) and needed saying... RESPONSE TO \\\"DOSSER\\\" ARTICLES One can only assume that it is becoming difficult to find things to accuse Gypsies of these days. So the paranoid fanatacists among us now have to resort to the realm of pure fantasy in a desperate attempt to keep the fires of prejudice burning at all costs. On the subject of \\\"dossers\\\" - just in case there are any gullible idiots out there who might consider newspaper articles akin to the gospel, and actually believe the inflamatory reports which have distorted the facts out of all proportion. This is irresponsible journalism at its worst. It is an abuse of the so called \\\"freedom of the press.\\\" Anyone growing up in the Romany world, knows the word \\\"dosser\\\" means \\\"casual worker.\\\" I.E. INDIVIDUALS WHO ACCEPT SHORT TERM EMPLOYMENT VOLUNTARILY IN RETURN FOR AN AGREED UPON RATE OF REMUNERATION. An arrangement which could be terminated by either party at will. GYPSIES DO NOT KEEP SLAVES. Historically, if a gypsy was lucky enough to obtain work in which he needed help (and had no children or relatives nearby of appropriate age) he would have no choice but to recruit one or more helpers as a last resort. A generation ago not many people wanted to work for gypsies, so obviously the people who agreed to do so, were ones, down on their luck, who really had no better alternative. Many of these were indeed tramps and other societal rejects. Frequently, they had nowhere else to live, so they were often offered lodging in addition to monetary wages (largely just to ensure that they turned up in the morning). This informal & MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL arrangement would usually last as long as the job did, although sometimes working relationships did form and the individual stayed for months at a time. It was and is a perfectly legitimate contractual agreement, entered into voluntarily, and subject to termination at any time by either party. It shouldn\\\'t take genius level IQ to recognize the complete absence of logic in the articles. Even at first glance, common sense should tell you that gypsies never had the facilities to engage in any kind of system of slavery. The very word \\\"slave\\\" suggests some form of restraint or captivity. How do you keep captives in a couple of already overcrowded carvans which you can\\\'t even park anywhere for long, under the intense scrutiny of the police, and the even more hawkeyed village busybodies. And that is only one of the more obvious aspects for consideration, there are many others, too lengthy for discussion here. Of course, it doesn\\\'t matter that this kind of arrangement parallels the usual employer/worker relationship up and down the length of the country (and the world at large), but lets ignore that because this is too good an opportunity to take a perfectly commonplace practice, distort and debase it, use a colloquial term to make it seem exceptional, ET VOILA ....use it as ammunition against the Gypsies. Having said all that, even if there is some truth in some reports of abuses in recent times, those cases, disturbing though they may be, are almost certainly statiscially less frequent that the cases of harrassment and bullying and threatening, sexual and otherwise which occur in workplaces elsewhere on a daily basis. It should have been correctly identified and reported as a human problem, and not particularly associated with Gypsies or travellers. But I suppose the opportunity to do so was just too tempting to resist.

Good for you darling, it is about time one of your own spoke up on here. For far to long this has been a sounding board for \"pikey haters\" there expression not mine. I have visited Dale Farm and found it most welcoming!

Lisa, I thought you'd had problems with travellers recently, when they left an eyesore at Gunners Park, and also when it looked like your horses were about to be rustled?

Gypsy Woman wrote:
Andrew

My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm.

The articles went beyond travellers and pointed a finger at Romany culture with the ludicrous suggestion that \"dosser\" meant \"slave\" and that slavery was common practice. Not sure if the word is of Romany origin, but it is a term definitely used by Romanies at least a generation before travellers adopted it.

The next thing you know, we\'ll accused of slave mongering on the same scale as the British Empire as obviously there no holds barred here.

Many Gypsies I know, did no more than chuckle at it, but I found it intolerable, and was compelled to set the record straight.

The Romany peoples\' lack of response in these cases is the reason that they are being targeted in the first place. Its always easy to attack those who don\'t bother to defend themselves. Unscrupulous journalists find them an easy target.

You're right about one thing, GypsyWoman, you're in the wrong thread. There was another discussion following the Echo's investigative journalist's piece on the issue of so-called 'dossers'. This is not what is being discussed here.

You may be right, people may be doing work for others in return for board and lodging only. That isn't unknown and I doubt if anyone would take exception to it. It used to be a common situation for single women in the 19th century who had no means and no home of their own. However, I believe that what the Echo's journalist found was that some of the 'dossers' were vulnerable people and that some had been prevented from leaving. If people take on a job for board and lodging only, know what they are doing and can leave whenever they choose, that isn't slavery. If they are kept against their will and forced to jobs that they don't want to do, then, by definition, that IS slavery.

You mention 'slave-mongering on the scale of the British Empire'. It should be pointed out that the British Empire was the first empire in history to abolish slavery, so that any slave anywhere in the world was free the moment he or she reached any British land or a British ship at sea. This gave rise to e.g. the Boers' 'Great Trek' - the Dutch settlers of South Africa didn't want to stop keeping slaves, so they trekked across the Vaal River - Transvaal - or across the Drakensberg mountains where they could live the way they wanted i.e. keep slaves! It also gave rise to the 'Underground Railway' in North America as described in 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' where slaves knew that if they crossed into Canada from the southern states, they would be free.

However, be that as it may, you say 'My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm'. But this present thread IS about Dale Farm, and the indignation many people feel at this waste of public money, which could have been put to much better use in a hundred different places locally. It's said that the log cabin is to be used as a chapel. Well, when our church underwent extensive repairs and modernisation in recent years, we didn't ask for a grant from public funds. We got a loan from the central church funds, which has been paid back, and the rest of the money was raised in all kinds of ways. We also use the church hall as a venue for different groups, dance classes, you name it, and they pay us rent for the few hours each group uses the facility.

Children aren't in school because of bullying - well, I commented on that one above. They need IT lessons from a volunteer (hope he's been cleared by the CRB!) - again, all children learn IT skills from age 5 onwards. Women want to learn hairdressing and flower-arranging - I don't know about hairdressing, but there are flower-arranging classes in all Adult Community Colleges. So all these facilities already exist and don't need to be duplicated.

You mention the word 'culture'. Now, this word is fast becoming like a red rag to a bull. I actually supported equal opportunities legislation back in the 1970s - reason: I'd been discriminated against myself, as a woman, and so had my daughter who wanted to do 'boys' subjects' at school because she had an ambition to become an engineer. We invoked the new legislation on her behalf - successfully. We didn't ask for any money though, a grant from taxpayers' funds!

Time was, we English didn't feel the need to explain or define who we were or what our culture was. We were who we were, and if you want to live here you accept our ways. There were minorities, of course (I used to know genuine Gypsies in my youth!) but as long as minorities stayed minorities that was fine. We always had a 'live and let live' kind of outlook. Things have changed. Every minority group you can name wants its 'rights' and it wants some taxpayers' money, maybe to erect its own religious building, educate its children separately, you name it. And we English are told that we'll become a minority in our own ancestral homeland within 60 years.

There is ONE charity set up for the ethnic English - one only - and it's called the Steadfast Trust. www.steadfasttrust.o

rg.uk

So you will forgive me if I say: please don't tell me about your culture. I really am not interested in it. I have nothing against you, but keep your culture to yourself. I am finding that I have to defend MY culture, and that's something I never felt the need to do for many many years - but I do now.

We English are a fairly law-abiding lot. The main problem, pertinent to the present discussion, is that you can't just buy a piece of land and use it to live on, unless it's land which already has outline planning permission. Still less can you buy a piece of land, live on it and then invite your whole family and in-laws, aunts and cousins until in a few short years it becomes a mini-town. Especially if, as has been pointed out above, you already have property in another country i.e. Ireland but don't want to live there, or have access to council properties in another part of England i.e. Wolverhampton. If I started to sell unsafe foam sofas out of my back garden, the law would be down on me like a ton of bricks, and rightly so.

I haven't been to the Dale Farm site, but I've been told about it by others who know, e.g. Hovefields resident above. I have no reason to think that what he/she says is untrue.

My husband looked at the picture of the site including log cabin, printed in the Echo a few days ago, and said to me 'Did you notice the mess outside some of those mobile homes, close by that new log cabin?' I hadn't in particular, but when I looked, yes, it's there, and this is the basic reason why so many people oppose that site and dislike its residents. They make such a damned mess everywhere they go! This is our England, our 'green and pleasant land'. If you insist on living here then obey our rules, our laws and our standards.

Margaret Stoll wrote:

Gypsy Woman wrote:
Andrew

My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm.

The articles went beyond travellers and pointed a finger at Romany culture with the ludicrous suggestion that \"dosser\" meant \"slave\" and that slavery was common practice. Not sure if the word is of Romany origin, but it is a term definitely used by Romanies at least a generation before travellers adopted it.

The next thing you know, we\'ll accused of slave mongering on the same scale as the British Empire as obviously there no holds barred here.

Many Gypsies I know, did no more than chuckle at it, but I found it intolerable, and was compelled to set the record straight.

The Romany peoples\' lack of response in these cases is the reason that they are being targeted in the first place. Its always easy to attack those who don\'t bother to defend themselves. Unscrupulous journalists find them an easy target.

You're right about one thing, GypsyWoman, you're in the wrong thread. There was another discussion following the Echo's investigative journalist's piece on the issue of so-called 'dossers'. This is not what is being discussed here.

You may be right, people may be doing work for others in return for board and lodging only. That isn't unknown and I doubt if anyone would take exception to it. It used to be a common situation for single women in the 19th century who had no means and no home of their own. However, I believe that what the Echo's journalist found was that some of the 'dossers' were vulnerable people and that some had been prevented from leaving. If people take on a job for board and lodging only, know what they are doing and can leave whenever they choose, that isn't slavery. If they are kept against their will and forced to jobs that they don't want to do, then, by definition, that IS slavery.

You mention 'slave-mongering on the scale of the British Empire'. It should be pointed out that the British Empire was the first empire in history to abolish slavery, so that any slave anywhere in the world was free the moment he or she reached any British land or a British ship at sea. This gave rise to e.g. the Boers' 'Great Trek' - the Dutch settlers of South Africa didn't want to stop keeping slaves, so they trekked across the Vaal River - Transvaal - or across the Drakensberg mountains where they could live the way they wanted i.e. keep slaves! It also gave rise to the 'Underground Railway' in North America as described in 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' where slaves knew that if they crossed into Canada from the southern states, they would be free.

However, be that as it may, you say 'My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm'. But this present thread IS about Dale Farm, and the indignation many people feel at this waste of public money, which could have been put to much better use in a hundred different places locally. It's said that the log cabin is to be used as a chapel. Well, when our church underwent extensive repairs and modernisation in recent years, we didn't ask for a grant from public funds. We got a loan from the central church funds, which has been paid back, and the rest of the money was raised in all kinds of ways. We also use the church hall as a venue for different groups, dance classes, you name it, and they pay us rent for the few hours each group uses the facility.

Children aren't in school because of bullying - well, I commented on that one above. They need IT lessons from a volunteer (hope he's been cleared by the CRB!) - again, all children learn IT skills from age 5 onwards. Women want to learn hairdressing and flower-arranging - I don't know about hairdressing, but there are flower-arranging classes in all Adult Community Colleges. So all these facilities already exist and don't need to be duplicated.

You mention the word 'culture'. Now, this word is fast becoming like a red rag to a bull. I actually supported equal opportunities legislation back in the 1970s - reason: I'd been discriminated against myself, as a woman, and so had my daughter who wanted to do 'boys' subjects' at school because she had an ambition to become an engineer. We invoked the new legislation on her behalf - successfully. We didn't ask for any money though, a grant from taxpayers' funds!

Time was, we English didn't feel the need to explain or define who we were or what our culture was. We were who we were, and if you want to live here you accept our ways. There were minorities, of course (I used to know genuine Gypsies in my youth!) but as long as minorities stayed minorities that was fine. We always had a 'live and let live' kind of outlook. Things have changed. Every minority group you can name wants its 'rights' and it wants some taxpayers' money, maybe to erect its own religious building, educate its children separately, you name it. And we English are told that we'll become a minority in our own ancestral homeland within 60 years.

There is ONE charity set up for the ethnic English - one only - and it's called the Steadfast Trust. www.steadfasttrust.o

rg.uk

So you will forgive me if I say: please don't tell me about your culture. I really am not interested in it. I have nothing against you, but keep your culture to yourself. I am finding that I have to defend MY culture, and that's something I never felt the need to do for many many years - but I do now.

We English are a fairly law-abiding lot. The main problem, pertinent to the present discussion, is that you can't just buy a piece of land and use it to live on, unless it's land which already has outline planning permission. Still less can you buy a piece of land, live on it and then invite your whole family and in-laws, aunts and cousins until in a few short years it becomes a mini-town. Especially if, as has been pointed out above, you already have property in another country i.e. Ireland but don't want to live there, or have access to council properties in another part of England i.e. Wolverhampton. If I started to sell unsafe foam sofas out of my back garden, the law would be down on me like a ton of bricks, and rightly so.

I haven't been to the Dale Farm site, but I've been told about it by others who know, e.g. Hovefields resident above. I have no reason to think that what he/she says is untrue.

My husband looked at the picture of the site including log cabin, printed in the Echo a few days ago, and said to me 'Did you notice the mess outside some of those mobile homes, close by that new log cabin?' I hadn't in particular, but when I looked, yes, it's there, and this is the basic reason why so many people oppose that site and dislike its residents. They make such a damned mess everywhere they go! This is our England, our 'green and pleasant land'. If you insist on living here then obey our rules, our laws and our standards.

Well said. It sums it all up rather well.

I notice nobody tries to defend the law breaking and anti-social aspects of these Itinerants. It's all ethic minority (joke), and human rights claptrap.

And still we await the 'final' judgement!!!

Hi Jimbo

It's perhaps worth mentioning that we English are an ethnic group within the meaning of the Race Relations Act (see my link to the Steadfast Trust above) and are forecast to become a minority in our own land. I shan't see that (thank God!) but my grandchildren might.

So it's full time that we started defending our own ethnic identity and our own human rights.

I'd love to buy a piece of land, plant it with native trees and perhaps have a log-cabin among the trees to live in. I'd present the land to the nation when I die. It wouldn't be allowed! How do people get the sort of money to buy a piece of green belt land, and pay cash for it? Answers on a postcard please.

Margaret Stoll wrote:

Gypsy Woman wrote: Andrew My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm. The articles went beyond travellers and pointed a finger at Romany culture with the ludicrous suggestion that \"dosser\" meant \"slave\" and that slavery was common practice. Not sure if the word is of Romany origin, but it is a term definitely used by Romanies at least a generation before travellers adopted it. The next thing you know, we\'ll accused of slave mongering on the same scale as the British Empire as obviously there no holds barred here. Many Gypsies I know, did no more than chuckle at it, but I found it intolerable, and was compelled to set the record straight. The Romany peoples\' lack of response in these cases is the reason that they are being targeted in the first place. Its always easy to attack those who don\'t bother to defend themselves. Unscrupulous journalists find them an easy target.

You're right about one thing, GypsyWoman, you're in the wrong thread. There was another discussion following the Echo's investigative journalist's piece on the issue of so-called 'dossers'. This is not what is being discussed here. You may be right, people may be doing work for others in return for board and lodging only. That isn't unknown and I doubt if anyone would take exception to it. It used to be a common situation for single women in the 19th century who had no means and no home of their own. However, I believe that what the Echo's journalist found was that some of the 'dossers' were vulnerable people and that some had been prevented from leaving. If people take on a job for board and lodging only, know what they are doing and can leave whenever they choose, that isn't slavery. If they are kept against their will and forced to jobs that they don't want to do, then, by definition, that IS slavery. You mention 'slave-mongering on the scale of the British Empire'. It should be pointed out that the British Empire was the first empire in history to abolish slavery, so that any slave anywhere in the world was free the moment he or she reached any British land or a British ship at sea. This gave rise to e.g. the Boers' 'Great Trek' - the Dutch settlers of South Africa didn't want to stop keeping slaves, so they trekked across the Vaal River - Transvaal - or across the Drakensberg mountains where they could live the way they wanted i.e. keep slaves! It also gave rise to the 'Underground Railway' in North America as described in 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' where slaves knew that if they crossed into Canada from the southern states, they would be free. However, be that as it may, you say 'My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm'. But this present thread IS about Dale Farm, and the indignation many people feel at this waste of public money, which could have been put to much better use in a hundred different places locally. It's said that the log cabin is to be used as a chapel. Well, when our church underwent extensive repairs and modernisation in recent years, we didn't ask for a grant from public funds. We got a loan from the central church funds, which has been paid back, and the rest of the money was raised in all kinds of ways. We also use the church hall as a venue for different groups, dance classes, you name it, and they pay us rent for the few hours each group uses the facility. Children aren't in school because of bullying - well, I commented on that one above. They need IT lessons from a volunteer (hope he's been cleared by the CRB!) - again, all children learn IT skills from age 5 onwards. Women want to learn hairdressing and flower-arranging - I don't know about hairdressing, but there are flower-arranging classes in all Adult Community Colleges. So all these facilities already exist and don't need to be duplicated. You mention the word 'culture'. Now, this word is fast becoming like a red rag to a bull. I actually supported equal opportunities legislation back in the 1970s - reason: I'd been discriminated against myself, as a woman, and so had my daughter who wanted to do 'boys' subjects' at school because she had an ambition to become an engineer. We invoked the new legislation on her behalf - successfully. We didn't ask for any money though, a grant from taxpayers' funds! Time was, we English didn't feel the need to explain or define who we were or what our culture was. We were who we were, and if you want to live here you accept our ways. There were minorities, of course (I used to know genuine Gypsies in my youth!) but as long as minorities stayed minorities that was fine. We always had a 'live and let live' kind of outlook. Things have changed. Every minority group you can name wants its 'rights' and it wants some taxpayers' money, maybe to erect its own religious building, educate its children separately, you name it. And we English are told that we'll become a minority in our own ancestral homeland within 60 years. There is ONE charity set up for the ethnic English - one only - and it's called the Steadfast Trust. www.steadfasttrust.o rg.uk So you will forgive me if I say: please don't tell me about your culture. I really am not interested in it. I have nothing against you, but keep your culture to yourself. I am finding that I have to defend MY culture, and that's something I never felt the need to do for many many years - but I do now. We English are a fairly law-abiding lot. The main problem, pertinent to the present discussion, is that you can't just buy a piece of land and use it to live on, unless it's land which already has outline planning permission. Still less can you buy a piece of land, live on it and then invite your whole family and in-laws, aunts and cousins until in a few short years it becomes a mini-town. Especially if, as has been pointed out above, you already have property in another country i.e. Ireland but don't want to live there, or have access to council properties in another part of England i.e. Wolverhampton. If I started to sell unsafe foam sofas out of my back garden, the law would be down on me like a ton of bricks, and rightly so. I haven't been to the Dale Farm site, but I've been told about it by others who know, e.g. Hovefields resident above. I have no reason to think that what he/she says is untrue. My husband looked at the picture of the site including log cabin, printed in the Echo a few days ago, and said to me 'Did you notice the mess outside some of those mobile homes, close by that new log cabin?' I hadn't in particular, but when I looked, yes, it's there, and this is the basic reason why so many people oppose that site and dislike its residents. They make such a damned mess everywhere they go! This is our England, our 'green and pleasant land'. If you insist on living here then obey our rules, our laws and our standards.

what is an English person?

I'm half English, wuarter Welsh, quarter Polish. Does that make me part of these dastardly minority groups infringing upon your vision of a pure ethnic state?

Given that the UK is 93% white, it'd take a lot more than 60 years at current demographic trends for white people to be displaced - these demographics are liable to change in the future with likely reductions in the birth rate of migrants as they become wealthier and also with increased restrictions on immigration which will no doubt become stricter in years to come.

Think Tank wrote:

Gypsy Woman wrote: Debor - You seem to have taken a bit of heat for your supportive comments, but I thank you for them anyway. Lisa Jensen - It was pleasure to see your post. I know that you are well liked and highly respected in many quarters. Your words of encouragement were much appreciated.

Gypsy woman...my ar$e

Fecking Pikey more like! Gypsie's don't talk with Irish accents or do driveways!

Gypsy Woman wrote:
This might be a little off thread here, but it is related to former posts (including one of the above) and needed saying... RESPONSE TO \"DOSSER\" ARTICLES One can only assume that it is becoming difficult to find things to accuse Gypsies of these days. So the paranoid fanatacists among us now have to resort to the realm of pure fantasy in a desperate attempt to keep the fires of prejudice burning at all costs. On the subject of \"dossers\" - just in case there are any gullible idiots out there who might consider newspaper articles akin to the gospel, and actually believe the inflamatory reports which have distorted the facts out of all proportion. This is irresponsible journalism at its worst. It is an abuse of the so called \"freedom of the press.\" Anyone growing up in the Romany world, knows the word \"dosser\" means \"casual worker.\" I.E. INDIVIDUALS WHO ACCEPT SHORT TERM EMPLOYMENT VOLUNTARILY IN RETURN FOR AN AGREED UPON RATE OF REMUNERATION. An arrangement which could be terminated by either party at will. GYPSIES DO NOT KEEP SLAVES. Historically, if a gypsy was lucky enough to obtain work in which he needed help (and had no children or relatives nearby of appropriate age) he would have no choice but to recruit one or more helpers as a last resort. A generation ago not many people wanted to work for gypsies, so obviously the people who agreed to do so, were ones, down on their luck, who really had no better alternative. Many of these were indeed tramps and other societal rejects. Frequently, they had nowhere else to live, so they were often offered lodging in addition to monetary wages (largely just to ensure that they turned up in the morning). This informal & MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL arrangement would usually last as long as the job did, although sometimes working relationships did form and the individual stayed for months at a time. It was and is a perfectly legitimate contractual agreement, entered into voluntarily, and subject to termination at any time by either party. It shouldn\'t take genius level IQ to recognize the complete absence of logic in the articles. Even at first glance, common sense should tell you that gypsies never had the facilities to engage in any kind of system of slavery. The very word \"slave\" suggests some form of restraint or captivity. How do you keep captives in a couple of already overcrowded carvans which you can\'t even park anywhere for long, under the intense scrutiny of the police, and the even more hawkeyed village busybodies. And that is only one of the more obvious aspects for consideration, there are many others, too lengthy for discussion here. Of course, it doesn\'t matter that this kind of arrangement parallels the usual employer/worker relationship up and down the length of the country (and the world at large), but lets ignore that because this is too good an opportunity to take a perfectly commonplace practice, distort and debase it, use a colloquial term to make it seem exceptional, ET VOILA ....use it as ammunition against the Gypsies. Having said all that, even if there is some truth in some reports of abuses in recent times, those cases, disturbing though they may be, are almost certainly statiscially less frequent that the cases of harrassment and bullying and threatening, sexual and otherwise which occur in workplaces elsewhere on a daily basis. It should have been correctly identified and reported as a human problem, and not particularly associated with Gypsies or travellers. But I suppose the opportunity to do so was just too tempting to resist.

I agree well said from one Gypsy women to another, these people who say all the nasty things have the nerve to say Gypsy and travellers are bad people, thay should be ashamed of some of the coments said,you would think all people in the settled community were all angels none of them are in prison none of them abuse bennifets none of them avoed paying tax,
Get in the real world there are good and bad in all races,
From sally tucker

Too bloody right squire. I want all the scrounging gits taken to court and fined, whoever they are.

I know loads, but I'm no grass. It's up to our leaders to sort 'em out.

THEY ARE NOT A RACE!!

1. Where are all the 13-18 year olds at the opening? Probably dont want to be on camera for fear of recognition whilst driving around Crays Hill with out license or insurance.
2. Crays Hill School has a "liason" teacher to arrange places for 11+ children to fit into senior schools. She is obviously not doing her job properly . Essex Education Authority take note .....
3. I have been advised that 11+ children from Crays Hill go to Bromfords complete with "minders" that accompany them around the school until the "children" decide that it is not realy their thing and stay at home to mind the kids or accompany the adults to - eh um "work".
4. Hairdressing mmmmmm not taught to well then peroxide and black root hair extentions seem to be order of the day.
5. Maybe they need to invest in the teaching of fake tan application because I personnaly find the orange streak effect quite offensive now the weather is warming up.
6. Flower arranging - I now know where my hanging baskets go at the dead of night - for a good cause it appears.
7. Disadvantages?! No I am sorry that is just plain Bo**ocks.

Margaret

I am disappointed at the tone of your post. I would have thought that a woman of your calibre would be more understanding of my position. But I realize that as an aspiring politician you must bow to popular opinion which may on occasion preclude an objective stance. That is an observation not a criticsim, I'm sure we'll all do the same in your shoes.

Your defence of English culture was admirable, but entirely unnecessary, since it was not under attack. I didn't realize that "Englishness" was a prerequisite for "freedom of speech", but just in case it is, the Romany side of my family has been in this country for more than 600 years - longer than the current royal family, I believe and the Anglo Saxon part even before that. My grandfather and father were (gypsy) war veterans and my brother is a currently serving
soldier. So you see, Margaret, I am an Englishwoman too. And patriotism and national pride are not your exclusive preserves. So hold your fire, and please, feel free to get down from the pulpit, since you are preaching to the saved.

As you pointed out, I am off-thread, however I posted here to capture the attention of the day's readers. I didn't think that people would go back to older posts. I should have posted when the articles first came out, but rather naively, I asked the "Gypsy Council" to respond to the the articles and explain the traditional meaning of the word in order to distance the Romany Culture from the alledged recent goings on. However days went by and nothing was done, I felt compelled to take matters into my own hands. Contrary to its name, the council is under traveller control and is soley concerned with their issues. Slurs on the Romany Culture, even of this magnitude are not a priority with them. They are too busy glorying in the legal loophole that allows them to claim "special" status for travellers.

My post has nothing to do with Dale Farm. I leave that situation to the individuals involved on both sides to resolve.

Margaret, are you in any position to rap me on the knuckles for being off topic? I notice you had no qualms at interjecting in several former threads with a spot of post election canvassing, and not all your comments were entirely in line with the subject and almost all of them went well beyond. I notice you have seized the opportunity again here. But I don't fault you for that, after all, there is nothing to say that one HAS to practice what one preaches. Actually I have always thought that you have the makings of an excellent politician, despite the dismal returns.

My comments on the "British Empire" were simply to illustrate a point. I had no intention of derogating our great country. But you have obviously taken it in that way. I know its a bit of a blot on our national consciousness and people get so touchy when it is mentioned, they always seem to feel that they are going to be accused of something. I wonder why? Sorry if I touched a raw nerve. But I am happy to see that you do exactly the same thing I do when faced with that tricky subject....make a valiant (albeit futile) attempt to brazen it out with a quick historical rewrite...its the only sensible thing to do, and I congratulate you on the version you came up with. It was a stroke of genius on your part to skim over the fact that the British actually instituted the practice of slavery in the then American colonies and the West Indies, and fast forward to the point where it was abolished and to turn around and give them credit for it! Most impressive!! I am tempted to show your post to some African American friends of mine as I think they might find it hilarious that you credit the British with the creation of the "Underground Railroad." But a certain embarrasment on your behalf will probably prevent me from doing so. Inventive though it may be, I doubt that we could sell that version of events to anyone outside Essex.

At a point in your post you say

"Forgive me if I say please don't tell me about your culture, I am not really interested in it...."

Well, frankly Margaret, the feeling is mutual. However, if you can subject me to your (not so) riveting views, political cliches and the biographical details of your and your relations's lives, then I must insist on taking the liberty of assuming that I am free to return the favour.

I'll "keep my culture to myself" as you put, only after you promise to do the same.

I have the right to air my views, if you don't want to read my post, then don't. But I do not have to agree with anyone and no one has to agree with me. Its called "Democracy" Margaret. It is that much talked about, but rarely practised thing, I don't know if you have ever heard of it, but I do hope you will consider including it in your political agenda.

Gypsy Woman wrote:
Margaret I am disappointed at the tone of your post. I would have thought that a woman of your calibre would be more understanding of my position. But I realize that as an aspiring politician you must bow to popular opinion which may on occasion preclude an objective stance. That is an observation not a criticsim, I'm sure we'll all do the same in your shoes. Your defence of English culture was admirable, but entirely unnecessary, since it was not under attack. I didn't realize that "Englishness" was a prerequisite for "freedom of speech", but just in case it is, the Romany side of my family has been in this country for more than 600 years - longer than the current royal family, I believe and the Anglo Saxon part even before that. My grandfather and father were (gypsy) war veterans and my brother is a currently serving soldier. So you see, Margaret, I am an Englishwoman too. And patriotism and national pride are not your exclusive preserves. So hold your fire, and please, feel free to get down from the pulpit, since you are preaching to the saved. As you pointed out, I am off-thread, however I posted here to capture the attention of the day's readers. I didn't think that people would go back to older posts. I should have posted when the articles first came out, but rather naively, I asked the "Gypsy Council" to respond to the the articles and explain the traditional meaning of the word in order to distance the Romany Culture from the alledged recent goings on. However days went by and nothing was done, I felt compelled to take matters into my own hands. Contrary to its name, the council is under traveller control and is soley concerned with their issues. Slurs on the Romany Culture, even of this magnitude are not a priority with them. They are too busy glorying in the legal loophole that allows them to claim "special" status for travellers. My post has nothing to do with Dale Farm. I leave that situation to the individuals involved on both sides to resolve. Margaret, are you in any position to rap me on the knuckles for being off topic? I notice you had no qualms at interjecting in several former threads with a spot of post election canvassing, and not all your comments were entirely in line with the subject and almost all of them went well beyond. I notice you have seized the opportunity again here. But I don't fault you for that, after all, there is nothing to say that one HAS to practice what one preaches. Actually I have always thought that you have the makings of an excellent politician, despite the dismal returns. My comments on the "British Empire" were simply to illustrate a point. I had no intention of derogating our great country. But you have obviously taken it in that way. I know its a bit of a blot on our national consciousness and people get so touchy when it is mentioned, they always seem to feel that they are going to be accused of something. I wonder why? Sorry if I touched a raw nerve. But I am happy to see that you do exactly the same thing I do when faced with that tricky subject....make a valiant (albeit futile) attempt to brazen it out with a quick historical rewrite...its the only sensible thing to do, and I congratulate you on the version you came up with. It was a stroke of genius on your part to skim over the fact that the British actually instituted the practice of slavery in the then American colonies and the West Indies, and fast forward to the point where it was abolished and to turn around and give them credit for it! Most impressive!! I am tempted to show your post to some African American friends of mine as I think they might find it hilarious that you credit the British with the creation of the "Underground Railroad." But a certain embarrasment on your behalf will probably prevent me from doing so. Inventive though it may be, I doubt that we could sell that version of events to anyone outside Essex. At a point in your post you say "Forgive me if I say please don't tell me about your culture, I am not really interested in it...." Well, frankly Margaret, the feeling is mutual. However, if you can subject me to your (not so) riveting views, political cliches and the biographical details of your and your relations's lives, then I must insist on taking the liberty of assuming that I am free to return the favour. I'll "keep my culture to myself" as you put, only after you promise to do the same. I have the right to air my views, if you don't want to read my post, then don't. But I do not have to agree with anyone and no one has to agree with me. Its called "Democracy" Margaret. It is that much talked about, but rarely practised thing, I don't know if you have ever heard of it, but I do hope you will consider including it in your political agenda.

Margaret,

Save yourself the bother of responding to 'gypsy woman'

Anyone with a brain will know it's 'Grillo'

Get Wise

I am certainly not Grillo..

But I second your appeal to Margaret to not strike again.

I am still weak from the last attack and in no condition to face another one.

Gypsy Woman wrote:
Get Wise I am certainly not Grillo.. But I second your appeal to Margaret to not strike again. I am still weak from the last attack and in no condition to face another one.

Oh but you are...The clues are all there.

To the GypsyWoman

I heard about your posts in the Echo and the attack by the ED extremist. It took me awhile to find it. This is to let you know that you have the full support of Romany Women across Britain. We are Romany, We are English and no one can take that away from us now or ever.

I see you come from a military family. My father was a soldier for a time too. The only time the Gauji racists didn't discriminate against us, was during the wars when they took our men. We were good enough to fight alongside them then, but not during peacetime.

But happily the world has changed, and we must also move on, I am glad that youngsters like you are strong and secure in your identity and that you take your rightful in place in OUR England. It is your birthright, let no one tell you differently.

We need no acceptance or validation from anyone - we are here and we are not going anywhere.

The likes of Margaret Stoll and her yob culture has ruined this country in recent years.

Mrs. Stoll, England belongs to us too - you have no say and no choice in that. But if you don't like it, why don't you leave?

Ivy Penfold wrote:
To the GypsyWoman I heard about your posts in the Echo and the attack by the ED extremist. It took me awhile to find it. This is to let you know that you have the full support of Romany Women across Britain. We are Romany, We are English and no one can take that away from us now or ever. I see you come from a military family. My father was a soldier for a time too. The only time the Gauji racists didn't discriminate against us, was during the wars when they took our men. We were good enough to fight alongside them then, but not during peacetime. But happily the world has changed, and we must also move on, I am glad that youngsters like you are strong and secure in your identity and that you take your rightful in place in OUR England. It is your birthright, let no one tell you differently. We need no acceptance or validation from anyone - we are here and we are not going anywhere. The likes of Margaret Stoll and her yob culture has ruined this country in recent years. Mrs. Stoll, England belongs to us too - you have no say and no choice in that. But if you don't like it, why don't you leave?

GRILLO

What is this Grillo thing?

Please, please tell me.

Great sense of humour GypsyW.

Glad you stood up to the bully!

I keep seeing the words "Romany" and "Gypsy" throughout these discussions. Are'nt travellers and Romany gypsies different ethnic minorities? They are according to Basildon council when they sent me a survey at the beginning of the year!

I used to know a Romany Gypsy family and they were nice people who were respectful people who caused no problems. I have met travellers and the experiences I have had I have found them rude (amongst other expletives)

So Gypsy Woman, Debor, Lisa Jensen and any others who agree with them. Are you now saying travellers and Romany Gypsies are one and the same ethnic minority?

Manmythlegend wrote:
I keep seeing the words "Romany" and "Gypsy" throughout these discussions. Are'nt travellers and Romany gypsies different ethnic minorities? They are according to Basildon council when they sent me a survey at the beginning of the year! I used to know a Romany Gypsy family and they were nice people who were respectful people who caused no problems. I have met travellers and the experiences I have had I have found them rude (amongst other expletives) So Gypsy Woman, Debor, Lisa Jensen and any others who agree with them. Are you now saying travellers and Romany Gypsies are one and the same ethnic minority?

No, quite the opposite,
My post has nothing to do with travellers, I am trying to set the record straight on the traditional meaning of the word
"dosser."
In my childhood, the word was used to refer to hired workers. The word is even mentioned in several Romany stories. If this ridiculous accusation goes unchallenged then people will really believe the silly suggestion that we kept slaves. The alleged "exposee" does not state that the practice might an occasional thing in recent times, it clearly suggests that it is a traditional one, and that is what I take exception to.
Dr. Kenrick was also misquoted. The reason the word Romany/Gypsy is appearing is because it is them I am referring to, establishing their (Romanies a.k.a Gypsyies) innocence in this is all I am concerned with.

Sally Tucker
Support is thin on the ground for the likes of me - but I soldier on in our cause, a promise made to my father years ago. You cannot imagine how welcome your post was. Thank you so much for taking the time. Kushti bok to you and yours.

Ivy Penfold - Wow! encouragement from someone with your famous name is worth its weight in gold. It certainly made my day.

Hi Gypsy woman, I now understand and also know of the use of the word dosser in the respect that you mean. I assume you were responding to posts in regards to the articles on dossers recently.

The way gypsies treated dossers in regards to the current treatment by travellers I believe are two very different cases.

I have no time for travellers. I could handle the fact they do not pay taxes and illegally develop on green belt land if they did not draw so much attention to themselves with the rudeness and abuse of people and the constant trouble that they bring to the table.

A certain amount of this gets sensationalised in the media. A lot of it is true though. You never had public outcry this much in regards to Romany gypsies using dossers or using land that was green belt. I believe this is because nobody cared because from my experience the respectability between gypsies and others have always been of a good accord.
Travellers on the other hand have no respect for rules or law. And they do no actual travelling!

Nobody wants to see kids homeless, travellers or not. I believe Dale Farm should be broken up and the travellers spread out across the UK with a certain amount of legal plots allocated to each local authority. They only cause so much uproar because they are in such a large group.

Gypsy Woman

Sally Tucker

Ivy Penfold

= GRILLO

Wise up people......

The english democrats unmasked!!

GRILLO HUNTER wrote:
Gypsy Woman Sally Tucker Ivy Penfold = GRILLO Wise up people......

wise up,
I am a English Romani Gypsy I HOPE THIS DOSE NOT COME UP TWICE AS MY POWER WENT.
I did not brake any planning laws but still came up with the same predudise as if i did, i was told by 1 villager we dont care it is a mobile home it is the word Gypsy we dont like, there is a feild next to me own by 2 none Gypsys as nice as thay are it is the bigest eye sore in the world 2 mobile homes to porter cabins stuff everywere not one word as been said to them people,you tell me why you can not finde a match stick on my land but i have my planning for 2 days i have had people to my door asking why was i putting planning permisson in for 1 more mobile home ,
1 PERSON is a property developer but as he as 5 houses he is developing and as done somthing wrong planning as been to him, i am now the bad person,
2 private school boys 17 through stones at my home shoted foul words at us get out stinking gypos you dirty c--ts.
lucky i had just put my 2&3 year olds to bed, you fink thats fear,
People come and say what say what thay like to you and if you responed tthay go back to the village and make up a lot of crap that you are agreesive,
you think thats faer,
you are right one rule for 1 one for anouther,
people can live next to people in houses that have mess all over the place do the wrong things it dose not meen everyone in houses are bad.
sombody in that as had Gypsy BY THEM WENT IN THE NEWS SAYING THAY CANT SELL THERE HOUSE I WENT AND GOT EVERY HOUSE FOR SALE IN THERE VILLAGE IT WAS PRICED £100.000 MORE THAN THE REST THAT WERE BETTER HOUSES BUT THAY THEN GOT THRE NEGATIVE PUBLICITY,
THATS WHAT THAY WANTED.YOU CALL THAT FAIR

Sally

It is appalling what still goes on. This is why I always say that we MUST educate our children. So that when they try to blind us with b#llsh1t we can respond in kind. Make sure your children stay in school no matter what, and if possible go to university. They will need this to compete in their generation. We need our young people and we need them well educated. I know 2 gypsy girls studying law at the moment, believe or not, one of them at Oxford. She has chosen to hide her origins until after graduation, its terrible that she should have to, but then again, I say one should do whatever one has to do to succeed.
My father sold his army medal to help with my university fees. I still grieve for the loss of his medal, but he never did, he always said it was money well spent. So you see, I have an obligation to fulfil, of course, I know that I am only one woman and cannot change the world, but if I can make one bigot halt in their tracks even for a moment, I would have kept faith with his memory and his sacrifice would not have been in vain.

Stay strong Sally, for your children's sake, and remember the future belongs to us as much as anyone else and you are not alone.

jimbo wrote:

Margaret Stoll wrote:

Gypsy Woman wrote: Andrew My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm. The articles went beyond travellers and pointed a finger at Romany culture with the ludicrous suggestion that \\\"dosser\\\" meant \\\"slave\\\" and that slavery was common practice. Not sure if the word is of Romany origin, but it is a term definitely used by Romanies at least a generation before travellers adopted it. The next thing you know, we\\\'ll accused of slave mongering on the same scale as the British Empire as obviously there no holds barred here. Many Gypsies I know, did no more than chuckle at it, but I found it intolerable, and was compelled to set the record straight. The Romany peoples\\\' lack of response in these cases is the reason that they are being targeted in the first place. Its always easy to attack those who don\\\'t bother to defend themselves. Unscrupulous journalists find them an easy target.

You\'re right about one thing, GypsyWoman, you\'re in the wrong thread. There was another discussion following the Echo\'s investigative journalist\'s piece on the issue of so-called \'dossers\'. This is not what is being discussed here. You may be right, people may be doing work for others in return for board and lodging only. That isn\'t unknown and I doubt if anyone would take exception to it. It used to be a common situation for single women in the 19th century who had no means and no home of their own. However, I believe that what the Echo\'s journalist found was that some of the \'dossers\' were vulnerable people and that some had been prevented from leaving. If people take on a job for board and lodging only, know what they are doing and can leave whenever they choose, that isn\'t slavery. If they are kept against their will and forced to jobs that they don\'t want to do, then, by definition, that IS slavery. You mention \'slave-mongering on the scale of the British Empire\'. It should be pointed out that the British Empire was the first empire in history to abolish slavery, so that any slave anywhere in the world was free the moment he or she reached any British land or a British ship at sea. This gave rise to e.g. the Boers\' \'Great Trek\' - the Dutch settlers of South Africa didn\'t want to stop keeping slaves, so they trekked across the Vaal River - Transvaal - or across the Drakensberg mountains where they could live the way they wanted i.e. keep slaves! It also gave rise to the \'Underground Railway\' in North America as described in \'Uncle Tom\'s Cabin\' where slaves knew that if they crossed into Canada from the southern states, they would be free. However, be that as it may, you say \'My comment has nothing to do with Dale Farm\'. But this present thread IS about Dale Farm, and the indignation many people feel at this waste of public money, which could have been put to much better use in a hundred different places locally. It\'s said that the log cabin is to be used as a chapel. Well, when our church underwent extensive repairs and modernisation in recent years, we didn\'t ask for a grant from public funds. We got a loan from the central church funds, which has been paid back, and the rest of the money was raised in all kinds of ways. We also use the church hall as a venue for different groups, dance classes, you name it, and they pay us rent for the few hours each group uses the facility. Children aren\'t in school because of bullying - well, I commented on that one above. They need IT lessons from a volunteer (hope he\'s been cleared by the CRB!) - again, all children learn IT skills from age 5 onwards. Women want to learn hairdressing and flower-arranging - I don\'t know about hairdressing, but there are flower-arranging classes in all Adult Community Colleges. So all these facilities already exist and don\'t need to be duplicated. You mention the word \'culture\'. Now, this word is fast becoming like a red rag to a bull. I actually supported equal opportunities legislation back in the 1970s - reason: I\'d been discriminated against myself, as a woman, and so had my daughter who wanted to do \'boys\' subjects\' at school because she had an ambition to become an engineer. We invoked the new legislation on her behalf - successfully. We didn\'t ask for any money though, a grant from taxpayers\' funds! Time was, we English didn\'t feel the need to explain or define who we were or what our culture was. We were who we were, and if you want to live here you accept our ways. There were minorities, of course (I used to know genuine Gypsies in my youth!) but as long as minorities stayed minorities that was fine. We always had a \'live and let live\' kind of outlook. Things have changed. Every minority group you can name wants its \'rights\' and it wants some taxpayers\' money, maybe to erect its own religious building, educate its children separately, you name it. And we English are told that we\'ll become a minority in our own ancestral homeland within 60 years. There is ONE charity set up for the ethnic English - one only - and it\'s called the Steadfast Trust. www.steadfasttrust.o rg.uk So you will forgive me if I say: please don\'t tell me about your culture. I really am not interested in it. I have nothing against you, but keep your culture to yourself. I am finding that I have to defend MY culture, and that\'s something I never felt the need to do for many many years - but I do now. We English are a fairly law-abiding lot. The main problem, pertinent to the present discussion, is that you can\'t just buy a piece of land and use it to live on, unless it\'s land which already has outline planning permission. Still less can you buy a piece of land, live on it and then invite your whole family and in-laws, aunts and cousins until in a few short years it becomes a mini-town. Especially if, as has been pointed out above, you already have property in another country i.e. Ireland but don\'t want to live there, or have access to council properties in another part of England i.e. Wolverhampton. If I started to sell unsafe foam sofas out of my back garden, the law would be down on me like a ton of bricks, and rightly so. I haven\'t been to the Dale Farm site, but I\'ve been told about it by others who know, e.g. Hovefields resident above. I have no reason to think that what he/she says is untrue. My husband looked at the picture of the site including log cabin, printed in the Echo a few days ago, and said to me \'Did you notice the mess outside some of those mobile homes, close by that new log cabin?\' I hadn\'t in particular, but when I looked, yes, it\'s there, and this is the basic reason why so many people oppose that site and dislike its residents. They make such a damned mess everywhere they go! This is our England, our \'green and pleasant land\'. If you insist on living here then obey our rules, our laws and our standards.

Well said. It sums it all up rather well. I notice nobody tries to defend the law breaking and anti-social aspects of these Itinerants. It\'s all ethic minority (joke), and human rights claptrap. And still we await the \'final\' judgement!!!

Isn't it amazing that even here in Ireland,these tax evading,drug smuggling,lawless,se

lf made illiterates who are White,Catholic and Irish are classed as an ethnic minority in a country primarily filled with white,catholic Irish people.They have made a fool of the system that was put in place to protect minorities and will continue to do so while Idiots are left in charge.I am from Rathkeale in Limerick,Eire and have spent my entire life observing how these people have "evolved" in the last 3 decades so I know my opinion is right,say what you will.I apologise to the British people,as a whole,for the deed's of a few knackers.I'm not waiting for final judgement,I'm waiting for "final solution"