Young thugs attack Southend mosque (From Echo)
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Young thugs attack Southend mosque
7:00am Wednesday 17th December 2008 in
A MUSLIM leader fears for the safety of his family, after attacks on a mosque and his flat next door.
The gang of teenagers have repeatedly targeted the Essex Jamme Masjid mosque, in Chelmsford Avenue, Southend, which was converted from a church earlier this year.
Imam Mahmudul Hasan said he had been left shocked and scared after teenagers also smashed the front door windows at his home.
SPECIAL REPORT IN WEDNESDAY'S ECHO
Comments(53)
Boyd Schidt
says...
9:24am Wed 17 Dec 08
undertaker wrote:And it is narrow minded idiots like yourself that believe that every Muslim is a terrorist and that if you are a Muslim you deserve what you get.
imam Mahmudul Hasan said he had been left shocked and scared after teenagers also smashed the front door windows at his home. This is how the people of this country feel when your fellow muslims resort to terrorism under the banner of this so called religion of peace.
Please do not speak for the rest of us with your anti-islamic views as I for one do not share them. Why don't you just carry on reading your Daily Mail and be quiet.
TP
says...
9:29am Wed 17 Dec 08
This attack is wrong but not really unexpected. Muslims have such a bad name now due to the terror attacks on London etc. People would probably have more sympathy and understanding towards them if they expressed their outrage more towards some of their fellow Muslims for blowing up totally innocent people going about their daily lives.
Wizardweb
says...
9:41am Wed 17 Dec 08
I'd like to hope the views of the Undertaker above is as rare as the views of the terrorists, but sadly there's a lot of brainless idiots like him in this country and it's the racists in Britain that are letting the country down, not the people they're mindlessly attacking.
Dave "Pongo" Bryant
says...
9:50am Wed 17 Dec 08
Very wrong to attack the mosque but best advice would have been to inform the police and not get it splashed over the Echo.
As a teenage yob from years and years ago, I can guarentee that this will prompt the same gang of thugs to have another go and also act as an advert for other yobs who are bored and looking for some action
As a teenage yob from years and years ago, I can guarentee that this will prompt the same gang of thugs to have another go and also act as an advert for other yobs who are bored and looking for some action
betty swallox
says...
10:13am Wed 17 Dec 08
Suppressed carol singers maybe?!
LocalBoy
says...
10:30am Wed 17 Dec 08
undertaker wrote:So if we read recent stories and posts on this website our youth are out of control, they need to be rounded up and shipped to a central point to be collected by their parents, youths on Canvey are generally running amok. All stories where the local hang um and flog um brigade were up in arms.
imam Mahmudul Hasan said he had been left shocked and scared after teenagers also smashed the front door windows at his home.
This is how the people of this country feel when your fellow muslims resort to terrorism under the banner of this so called religion of peace.
I assume all of this behavior would be okay if it was directed at Muslims would it Mr Undertaker?
Double standards springs to mind. Just as most teenagers are not the out of control thugs that many posts portray, most Muslims are not the out of control terrorists people like you and the national press would like us to believe.
I fail to understand why when this country was under constant attack from Irish (Catholic) terrorists the majority managed to work out that it was only a minority of Irish people and certainly nothing to do with the bulk of Catholics. Yet many do not seem to be able to understand it is the same for the majority of Muslims.
Perhaps it all boils down to the colour of their skin?
TP
says...
10:58am Wed 17 Dec 08
I would say in response to Local Boys remarks that I believe most people in this country know that it is only a tiny minority of Muslims that are terrorists, just as we knew that it was only a tiny minority of Irish (Catholics) that were terrorists. It as absolutely nothing to do with skin colour and I think the views of the people in this column on the whole are very supportive towards the three men pictured.
Annyetta
says...
12:29pm Wed 17 Dec 08
It is such a shame but I do think that the PC brigade have done a lot to cause tension within our country. Mindless people will feel the need to take out their frustration on any easy target because a lot of indigenous British are sick of being dictated to. Our customs and celebrations are being quashed in the name of open hospitality to non-British, non-Christian peoples, because "we want to make them feel welcome"?
Hmmm. Well, this isnt very welcoming, or very Christian.
I do understand frustrations towards the politically correct brigade and I do think that terrorism, no matter what hat it wears or what name it is in, is beyond terrible.
It is not the innocent who need to be punished in any way, shape or form.
I know it has become a bit of a cliche now, but I do pray for peace.
Hmmm. Well, this isnt very welcoming, or very Christian.
I do understand frustrations towards the politically correct brigade and I do think that terrorism, no matter what hat it wears or what name it is in, is beyond terrible.
It is not the innocent who need to be punished in any way, shape or form.
I know it has become a bit of a cliche now, but I do pray for peace.
betty swallox
says...
12:49pm Wed 17 Dec 08
well said anyetta
Dave G
says...
12:51pm Wed 17 Dec 08
Annyetta, where is this PC brigade??
If you let me know where it is, I might consider enlisting (if only to annoy the average Daily Mail reader) but sadly I think it's a bit of a figment of the collective imagination.
Sure people might come up with one or two examples where people appear to have banned Christmas carols or some such thing, but these are isolated silly examples, not some conspiracy.
If you let me know where it is, I might consider enlisting (if only to annoy the average Daily Mail reader) but sadly I think it's a bit of a figment of the collective imagination.
Sure people might come up with one or two examples where people appear to have banned Christmas carols or some such thing, but these are isolated silly examples, not some conspiracy.
Southchurch Steve
says...
1:45pm Wed 17 Dec 08
TP wrote:To be fair TP, I think almost every Muslim group came out in condemnation of the 9/11 and 7/7 attacks. Most Islamic groups were at pains to point out that the attacks were not carried out in the name of Islam but by fundamentalists.
This attack is wrong but not really unexpected. Muslims have such a bad name now due to the terror attacks on London etc. People would probably have more sympathy and understanding towards them if they expressed their outrage more towards some of their fellow Muslims for blowing up totally innocent people going about their daily lives.
As for blowing up innocent people going about their daily lives....aerial bombardment of Baghdad?
The Voice of Reason
says...
2:14pm Wed 17 Dec 08
Boyd Schidt wrote:'And it is narrow minded idiots like yourself . . . Why don't you just carry on reading your Daily Mail and be quiet.'
undertaker wrote: imam Mahmudul Hasan said he had been left shocked and scared after teenagers also smashed the front door windows at his home. This is how the people of this country feel when your fellow muslims resort to terrorism under the banner of this so called religion of peace.And it is narrow minded idiots like yourself that believe that every Muslim is a terrorist and that if you are a Muslim you deserve what you get. Please do not speak for the rest of us with your anti-islamic views as I for one do not share them. Why don't you just carry on reading your Daily Mail and be quiet.
Pot-kettle-black . . . with comments like yours, i find it rather ironic that your surname shares a common factor with the contents of head !
I truly fear for an anarchy state in the not too distant future - sadly, desperate times have adverse effects on people and something has got to give.
Still, maybe if you continue to read the Sun/Star then you'll believe that all is rosey, when in reality things are anything but !
TVoR
TP
says...
2:38pm Wed 17 Dec 08
I take your points Southchurch Steve. But it was not the British people's decision to bomb Baghdad, that decision was taken by our government.
F Thompson
says...
3:56pm Wed 17 Dec 08
Dave G wrote:The fact that many schools do not perform a nativity anymore. I overheard a group of mums talking recently saying what a shame it was that their school no longer does a nativity but a play about santa or something. Many people in this country are getting sick of our traditions changing and these are not isolated incidents.
Annyetta, where is this PC brigade?? If you let me know where it is, I might consider enlisting (if only to annoy the average Daily Mail reader) but sadly I think it's a bit of a figment of the collective imagination. Sure people might come up with one or two examples where people appear to have banned Christmas carols or some such thing, but these are isolated silly examples, not some conspiracy.
Dave G
says...
4:13pm Wed 17 Dec 08
F Thompson wrote:I have in front of me Tuesday's Echo, which is packed full of photos of school plays. The majority of them look like fairly traditional nativity plays to me.
Dave G wrote:The fact that many schools do not perform a nativity anymore. I overheard a group of mums talking recently saying what a shame it was that their school no longer does a nativity but a play about santa or something. Many people in this country are getting sick of our traditions changing and these are not isolated incidents.
Annyetta, where is this PC brigade?? If you let me know where it is, I might consider enlisting (if only to annoy the average Daily Mail reader) but sadly I think it's a bit of a figment of the collective imagination. Sure people might come up with one or two examples where people appear to have banned Christmas carols or some such thing, but these are isolated silly examples, not some conspiracy.
When I was at school, usually we did a nativity play. One year we did a production of 'Joseph' just to be different - do that now and you'll have the Daily Mail ranting against you before you can say 'political correctness gone mad'.
Incidentally, if there were as many people attending church as there are moaning about the loss of Christian traditions, the place in Chelmsford Avenue wouldn't be a Mosque.
Soozie
says...
4:21pm Wed 17 Dec 08
I have in front of me Tuesday's Echo, which is packed full of photos of school plays.
Someone actually buys the Echo?
Someone actually buys the Echo?
Bosniavet
says...
5:01pm Wed 17 Dec 08
LocalBoy, Hawkwell
"I fail to understand why when this country was under constant attack from Irish (Catholic) terrorists the majority managed to work out that it was only a minority of Irish people and certainly nothing to do with the bulk of Catholics. Yet many do not seem to be able to understand it is the same for the majority of Muslims"
Local Boy, I will make the assumption that you are both too young to remember the height of the "Troubles" as they are referred to, & have not studied much 20th Century history. PIRA & the organisations that preceeded it were never exclusively Roman Catholic, nor did they claim that the acts they committed were sanctioned by God or the Church (indeed, I seem to remember the Pope excommunicated the members of the organisations. As for public backlashes, my late grandfather (who had been born, brought up & lived his entire life in Thurrock) who had an Irish surname did receive nuisance calls because of his perceived connection to Ireland. I also suggest you look up the story of the Easter Uprising of 1916 & Sir Roger Casement.
Now, I would like to condemn the actions of those who have targeted this place of worship & the home of the Imam. These actions are not supported by the majority of our population, nor should they be. Islam, like other religions, teaches tolerance & peace, & we should display the same to it's followers. However, anybody who claims religious justification for acts of terror should be roundly condemned by all.
I hope that those responsible for these outrages are apprehended & face the consequences of their actions soon.
"I fail to understand why when this country was under constant attack from Irish (Catholic) terrorists the majority managed to work out that it was only a minority of Irish people and certainly nothing to do with the bulk of Catholics. Yet many do not seem to be able to understand it is the same for the majority of Muslims"
Local Boy, I will make the assumption that you are both too young to remember the height of the "Troubles" as they are referred to, & have not studied much 20th Century history. PIRA & the organisations that preceeded it were never exclusively Roman Catholic, nor did they claim that the acts they committed were sanctioned by God or the Church (indeed, I seem to remember the Pope excommunicated the members of the organisations. As for public backlashes, my late grandfather (who had been born, brought up & lived his entire life in Thurrock) who had an Irish surname did receive nuisance calls because of his perceived connection to Ireland. I also suggest you look up the story of the Easter Uprising of 1916 & Sir Roger Casement.
Now, I would like to condemn the actions of those who have targeted this place of worship & the home of the Imam. These actions are not supported by the majority of our population, nor should they be. Islam, like other religions, teaches tolerance & peace, & we should display the same to it's followers. However, anybody who claims religious justification for acts of terror should be roundly condemned by all.
I hope that those responsible for these outrages are apprehended & face the consequences of their actions soon.
evilc
says...
5:41pm Wed 17 Dec 08
What is actually wrong with a bacon sandwich?
undertaker
says...
7:05pm Wed 17 Dec 08
Boyd Schidt wrote:And its blinkered fools like you who are leading this country into the abyss.
undertaker wrote: imam Mahmudul Hasan said he had been left shocked and scared after teenagers also smashed the front door windows at his home. This is how the people of this country feel when your fellow muslims resort to terrorism under the banner of this so called religion of peace.And it is narrow minded idiots like yourself that believe that every Muslim is a terrorist and that if you are a Muslim you deserve what you get. Please do not speak for the rest of us with your anti-islamic views as I for one do not share them. Why don't you just carry on reading your Daily Mail and be quiet.
Try reading the quran and not some misguided interpretation of it , Its a way of life not a religion.
Take a look at what the jewish race have suffered over the years especially at the hands of the nazis , you dont see them issuing fatwas and beheadings because they dont agree with something.
Islam has tried to rule the west for centuries through war and fear but now the are doing it with the passport and visa and succeeding because of people like you.
applebob
says...
8:13pm Wed 17 Dec 08
undertaker wrote:1) Yes, Islam is a way of life, was that supposed to sound threatening? Buddhism is also a way of life, as are many philosphies.
Boyd Schidt wrote:And its blinkered fools like you who are leading this country into the abyss. Try reading the quran and not some misguided interpretation of it , Its a way of life not a religion. Take a look at what the jewish race have suffered over the years especially at the hands of the nazis , you dont see them issuing fatwas and beheadings because they dont agree with something. Islam has tried to rule the west for centuries through war and fear but now the are doing it with the passport and visa and succeeding because of people like you.undertaker wrote: imam Mahmudul Hasan said he had been left shocked and scared after teenagers also smashed the front door windows at his home. This is how the people of this country feel when your fellow muslims resort to terrorism under the banner of this so called religion of peace.And it is narrow minded idiots like yourself that believe that every Muslim is a terrorist and that if you are a Muslim you deserve what you get. Please do not speak for the rest of us with your anti-islamic views as I for one do not share them. Why don't you just carry on reading your Daily Mail and be quiet.
2) Misguided interpretation? What, just like the English copy you would have read? (Since translating Arabic to English is very complicated and can easily, and very often is, inaccurately done. Even in publishers with good reputations, for example Oxford Press). Unless of course you are fluent in Fushah Arabic and were referring to an original version of the Qur'aan when you told that "blinkered fool" to have a read.
3) Of course the Jewish race has suffered much in the past, and by using that comparison I guess you're consolidating that Muslims have suffered too? Somehow i doubt that that was your intention...
4) Through war and fear? Okay let's see... Crusades - not started by muslims. Israel/Palestine conflict - militant Israelis funded by the West to violently remove Palestinians with mere rocks as weapons from their own homes, instead of any sensible person on either side being allowed to put a two state solution into place. Afghanistan - they were and still are the victims of an invasion. Iraq - went out of the frying pan and into the fire (through no choice of their own). Not forgetting that Saddam was best buds with Bush (and therefore his British poodle too, of course) not too long before, and just like many others was actually given a leg up by the West.
And that was only to mention a few of the most notorious incidents.
5) Let's not forget the whole point here. I'm glad to say that what most people are saying is the glaringly obvious truth, but which some like yourself conveniently ignore - you can't judge innocent people of any way of life for actions of others who claim to be of the same group (even "authority" figures. Notice that Imam Mahmudul Hasan is referred to as a Muslim leader in this article, though he's little more than the local guy who has a qualification or two and managed the great feat of getting the post of imam for a brand new unpopular mosque amongst applicants who can't speak English.) Therefore it is highly insensitive and, i'm sorry, stupid and discriminatory to imply that they got what was coming to them, or even that it's less of an outrage than if it had happened to anyone else.
6) So people who pass an English and British History/Culture test to achieve citizenship, trying to gain more opportunities in Great Britain, are planning to convert Britain and overthrow this regime to replace it with an Islamic one? Here I was thinking that uneducated illegal immigrants and the apparently huge number of British-born radicalised youths were the problem.
Finally, assuming that everything I have just refuted above is actually correct, as IF they are suceeding! Islamophobic much? Maybe you should join the BNP, they'll save our country and sort out those monstrous muslims...!
mcrobber
says...
8:16pm Wed 17 Dec 08
have you ever walked about in your pyjamas with a hankie on your head, no shoes and socks on, and a funny little beard - respect .
applebob
says...
8:29pm Wed 17 Dec 08
Respect? Interesting concept... Or in this case, amusing :P
undertaker
says...
8:56pm Wed 17 Dec 08
In Denmark, once-liberalimmigrat
ion policies have forced huge governmental change and zero tolerance for Muslim immigrants intent on turning Denmark into an Islamic welfare haven. FSM Contributing Editor Susan MacAllen reveals a shocking reaction there and lessons America must learn.
In 1978-9 I was living and studying in Denmark. An elderly woman to whom I was close said something to me one day that puzzled me for many years after. I forget what the context of our conversation was, but she commented that I - as a young American in Denmark - should not let any Dane scold me about the way America had treated its black population, because the Danes in her view treated their immigrants at least as badly. I wasn’t sure which immigrants she meant, so I asked her. She answered that she meant those from the Middle East.
But in 1978 - even in Copenhagen, one didn’t see these Muslim immigrants. The Danish population embraced visitors, celebrated the exotic, went out of its way to protect each of its citizens. It was proud of its new brand of socialist liberalism - one in development since the conservatives had lost power in 1929 - a system where no worker had to struggle to survive, where one ultimately could count upon the state as in, perhaps, no other western nation at the time. The rest of Europe saw the Scandinavians as free-thinking, progressive and infinitely generous in their welfare policies. Denmark boasted low crime rates, devotion to the environment, a superior educational system and a history of humanitarianism.
Denmark was also most generous in its immigration policies - it offered the best welcome in Europe to the new immigrant: generous welfare payments from first arrival plus additional perks in transportation, housing and education. It was determined to set a world example for inclusiveness and multiculturalism. How could it have predicted that one day in 2005 a series of political cartoons in a newspaper would spark violence that would leave dozens dead in the streets - all because its commitment to multiculturalism would come back to bite?
By the 1990's the growing urban Muslim population was obvious - and its unwillingness to integrate into Danish society was obvious. Years of immigrants had settled into Muslim-exclusive enclaves. As the Muslim leadership became more vocal about what they considered the decadence of Denmark’s liberal way of life, the Danes - once so welcoming - began to feel slighted. Many Danes had begun to see Islam as incompatible with their long-standing values: belief in personal liberty and free speech, in equality for women, in tolerance for other ethnic groups, and a deep pride in Danish heritage and history.
The New York Post in 2002 ran an article by Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaard, in which they forecasted accurately that the growing immigrant problem in Denmark would explode. In the article they reported:
· "Muslim immigrants…constit
ute 5 percent of the population but consume upwards of 40 percent of the welfare spending."
· "Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark's 5.4 million people but make up a majority of the country's convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes."
· "Over time, as Muslim immigrants increase in numbers, they wish less to mix with the indigenous population. A recent survey finds that only 5 percent of young Muslim immigrants would readily marry a Dane."
· "Forced marriages - promising a newborn daughter in Denmark to a male cousin in the home country, then compelling her to marry him, sometimes on pain of death - are one problem..."
· "Muslim leaders openly declare their goal of introducing Islamic law once Denmark's Muslim population grows large enough - a not-that-remote prospect. If present trends persist, one sociologist estimates, every third inhabitant of Denmark in 40 years will be Muslim."
It is easy to understand why a growing number of Danes would feel that Muslim immigrants show little respect for Danish values and laws. An example is the phenomenon common to other European countries and the U.S.: some Muslims in Denmark who opted to leave the Muslim faith have been murdered in the name of Islam, while others hide in fear for their lives. Jews are also threatened and harassed openly by Muslim leaders in Denmark, a country where once Christian citizens worked to smuggle out nearly all of their 7,000 Jews by night to Sweden - before the Nazis could invade. I think of my Danish friend Elsa - who as a teenager had dreaded crossing the street to the bakery every morning under the eyes of occupying Nazi soldiers - and I wonder what she would say today.
In 2001, Denmark elected the most conservative government in some 70 years - one that had some decidedly non-generous ideas about liberal unfettered immigration. Today Denmark has the strictest immigration policies in Europe. ( Its effort to protect itself has been met with accusations of "racism" by liberal media across Europe - even as other governments struggle to right the social problems wrought by years of too-lax immigration.) If you wish to become Danish, you must attend three years of language classes. You must pass a test on Denmark’s history, culture, and a Danish language test. You must live in Denmark for 7 years before applying for citizenship. You must demonstrate an intent to work, and have a job waiting. If you wish to bring a spouse into Denmark, you must both be over 24 years of age, and you won’t find it so easy anymore to move your friends and family to Denmark with you. You will not be allowed to build a mosque in Copenhagen. Although your children have a choice of some 30 Arabic culture and language schools in Denmark, they will be strongly encouraged to assimilate to Danish society in ways that past immigrants weren’t.
In 2006, the Danish minister for employment, Claus Hjort Frederiksen, spoke publicly of the burden of Muslim immigrants on the Danish welfare system, and it was horrifying: the government’s welfare committee had calculated that if immigration from Third World countries were blocked, 75 percent of the cuts needed to sustain the huge welfare system in coming decades would be unnecessary. In other words, the welfare system as it existed was being exploited by immigrants to the point of eventually bankrupting the government. "We are simply forced to adopt a new policy on immigration. The calculations of the welfare committee are terrifying and show how unsuccessful the integration of immigrants has been up to now," he said.
A large thorn in the side of Denmark’s imams is the Minister of Immigration and Integration, Rikke Hvilshoj. She makes no bones about the new policy toward immigration, "The number of foreigners coming to the country makes a difference," Hvilshøj says, "There is an inverse correlation between how many come here and how well we can receive the foreigners that come." And on Muslim immigrants needing to demonstrate a willingness to blend in, "In my view, Denmark should be a country with room for different cultures and religions. Some values, however, are more important than others. We refuse to question democracy, equal rights, and freedom of speech."
Hvilshoj has paid a price for her show of backbone. Perhaps to test her resolve, the leading radical imam in Denmark, Ahmed Abdel Rahman Abu Laban, demanded that the government pay blood money to the family of a Muslim who was murdered in a suburb of Copenhagen, stating that the family’s thirst for revenge could be thwarted for money. When Hvilshoj dismissed his demand, he argued that in Muslim culture the payment of retribution money was common, to which Hvilshoj replied that what is done in a Muslim country is not necessarily what is done in Denmark. The Muslim reply came soon after: her house was torched while she, her husband and children slept. All managed to escape unharmed, but she and her family were moved to a secret location and she and other ministers were assigned bodyguards for the first time - in a country where such murderous violence was once so scarce.
Her government has slid to the right, and her borders have tightened. Many believe that what happens in the next decade will determine whether Denmark survives as a bastion of good living, humane thinking and social responsibility, or whether it becomes a nation at civil war with supporters of Sharia law. And meanwhile, Americans clamor for stricter immigration policies, and demand an end to state welfare programs that allow many immigrants to live on the public dole. As we in America look at the enclaves of Muslims amongst us, and see those who enter our shores too easily, dare live on our taxes, yet refuse to embrace our culture, respect our traditions, participate in our legal system, obey our laws, speak our language, appreciate our history . . . we would do well to look to Denmark, and say a prayer for her future and for our own.
ion policies have forced huge governmental change and zero tolerance for Muslim immigrants intent on turning Denmark into an Islamic welfare haven. FSM Contributing Editor Susan MacAllen reveals a shocking reaction there and lessons America must learn.
In 1978-9 I was living and studying in Denmark. An elderly woman to whom I was close said something to me one day that puzzled me for many years after. I forget what the context of our conversation was, but she commented that I - as a young American in Denmark - should not let any Dane scold me about the way America had treated its black population, because the Danes in her view treated their immigrants at least as badly. I wasn’t sure which immigrants she meant, so I asked her. She answered that she meant those from the Middle East.
But in 1978 - even in Copenhagen, one didn’t see these Muslim immigrants. The Danish population embraced visitors, celebrated the exotic, went out of its way to protect each of its citizens. It was proud of its new brand of socialist liberalism - one in development since the conservatives had lost power in 1929 - a system where no worker had to struggle to survive, where one ultimately could count upon the state as in, perhaps, no other western nation at the time. The rest of Europe saw the Scandinavians as free-thinking, progressive and infinitely generous in their welfare policies. Denmark boasted low crime rates, devotion to the environment, a superior educational system and a history of humanitarianism.
Denmark was also most generous in its immigration policies - it offered the best welcome in Europe to the new immigrant: generous welfare payments from first arrival plus additional perks in transportation, housing and education. It was determined to set a world example for inclusiveness and multiculturalism. How could it have predicted that one day in 2005 a series of political cartoons in a newspaper would spark violence that would leave dozens dead in the streets - all because its commitment to multiculturalism would come back to bite?
By the 1990's the growing urban Muslim population was obvious - and its unwillingness to integrate into Danish society was obvious. Years of immigrants had settled into Muslim-exclusive enclaves. As the Muslim leadership became more vocal about what they considered the decadence of Denmark’s liberal way of life, the Danes - once so welcoming - began to feel slighted. Many Danes had begun to see Islam as incompatible with their long-standing values: belief in personal liberty and free speech, in equality for women, in tolerance for other ethnic groups, and a deep pride in Danish heritage and history.
The New York Post in 2002 ran an article by Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaard, in which they forecasted accurately that the growing immigrant problem in Denmark would explode. In the article they reported:
· "Muslim immigrants…constit
ute 5 percent of the population but consume upwards of 40 percent of the welfare spending."
· "Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark's 5.4 million people but make up a majority of the country's convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes."
· "Over time, as Muslim immigrants increase in numbers, they wish less to mix with the indigenous population. A recent survey finds that only 5 percent of young Muslim immigrants would readily marry a Dane."
· "Forced marriages - promising a newborn daughter in Denmark to a male cousin in the home country, then compelling her to marry him, sometimes on pain of death - are one problem..."
· "Muslim leaders openly declare their goal of introducing Islamic law once Denmark's Muslim population grows large enough - a not-that-remote prospect. If present trends persist, one sociologist estimates, every third inhabitant of Denmark in 40 years will be Muslim."
It is easy to understand why a growing number of Danes would feel that Muslim immigrants show little respect for Danish values and laws. An example is the phenomenon common to other European countries and the U.S.: some Muslims in Denmark who opted to leave the Muslim faith have been murdered in the name of Islam, while others hide in fear for their lives. Jews are also threatened and harassed openly by Muslim leaders in Denmark, a country where once Christian citizens worked to smuggle out nearly all of their 7,000 Jews by night to Sweden - before the Nazis could invade. I think of my Danish friend Elsa - who as a teenager had dreaded crossing the street to the bakery every morning under the eyes of occupying Nazi soldiers - and I wonder what she would say today.
In 2001, Denmark elected the most conservative government in some 70 years - one that had some decidedly non-generous ideas about liberal unfettered immigration. Today Denmark has the strictest immigration policies in Europe. ( Its effort to protect itself has been met with accusations of "racism" by liberal media across Europe - even as other governments struggle to right the social problems wrought by years of too-lax immigration.) If you wish to become Danish, you must attend three years of language classes. You must pass a test on Denmark’s history, culture, and a Danish language test. You must live in Denmark for 7 years before applying for citizenship. You must demonstrate an intent to work, and have a job waiting. If you wish to bring a spouse into Denmark, you must both be over 24 years of age, and you won’t find it so easy anymore to move your friends and family to Denmark with you. You will not be allowed to build a mosque in Copenhagen. Although your children have a choice of some 30 Arabic culture and language schools in Denmark, they will be strongly encouraged to assimilate to Danish society in ways that past immigrants weren’t.
In 2006, the Danish minister for employment, Claus Hjort Frederiksen, spoke publicly of the burden of Muslim immigrants on the Danish welfare system, and it was horrifying: the government’s welfare committee had calculated that if immigration from Third World countries were blocked, 75 percent of the cuts needed to sustain the huge welfare system in coming decades would be unnecessary. In other words, the welfare system as it existed was being exploited by immigrants to the point of eventually bankrupting the government. "We are simply forced to adopt a new policy on immigration. The calculations of the welfare committee are terrifying and show how unsuccessful the integration of immigrants has been up to now," he said.
A large thorn in the side of Denmark’s imams is the Minister of Immigration and Integration, Rikke Hvilshoj. She makes no bones about the new policy toward immigration, "The number of foreigners coming to the country makes a difference," Hvilshøj says, "There is an inverse correlation between how many come here and how well we can receive the foreigners that come." And on Muslim immigrants needing to demonstrate a willingness to blend in, "In my view, Denmark should be a country with room for different cultures and religions. Some values, however, are more important than others. We refuse to question democracy, equal rights, and freedom of speech."
Hvilshoj has paid a price for her show of backbone. Perhaps to test her resolve, the leading radical imam in Denmark, Ahmed Abdel Rahman Abu Laban, demanded that the government pay blood money to the family of a Muslim who was murdered in a suburb of Copenhagen, stating that the family’s thirst for revenge could be thwarted for money. When Hvilshoj dismissed his demand, he argued that in Muslim culture the payment of retribution money was common, to which Hvilshoj replied that what is done in a Muslim country is not necessarily what is done in Denmark. The Muslim reply came soon after: her house was torched while she, her husband and children slept. All managed to escape unharmed, but she and her family were moved to a secret location and she and other ministers were assigned bodyguards for the first time - in a country where such murderous violence was once so scarce.
Her government has slid to the right, and her borders have tightened. Many believe that what happens in the next decade will determine whether Denmark survives as a bastion of good living, humane thinking and social responsibility, or whether it becomes a nation at civil war with supporters of Sharia law. And meanwhile, Americans clamor for stricter immigration policies, and demand an end to state welfare programs that allow many immigrants to live on the public dole. As we in America look at the enclaves of Muslims amongst us, and see those who enter our shores too easily, dare live on our taxes, yet refuse to embrace our culture, respect our traditions, participate in our legal system, obey our laws, speak our language, appreciate our history . . . we would do well to look to Denmark, and say a prayer for her future and for our own.
Iftikhar
says...
9:24pm Wed 17 Dec 08
The debate over the trajectory of the western sociopolitical system and its strained relations with Islam is the most pivotal of our time. Muslims are in one of the most difficult phases of their history when malicious attacks including allegation of terrorism are being made on Islam and Muslims all over the world. The malicious campaign against Muslims is politically motivated. The world is obsessed by Islam. Anti-terror measures are ruining lives of Muslim youths. If you go around arresting young Muslims, you are going to find that you are going to ostracise this community. Young Muslims don’t need to be ostracized, they need to be engaged. According to the Arch Bishop, Rowan Williams, acceptance of some facets of Sharia not only “seems unavoidable”, but could actually improve social cohesion. Muslims should be able to choose to have marital or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia Court. Such courts should therefore be incorporated into the British legal system as a constructive accommodation with Islam. Schools are being asked to help “win hearts and minds” in the battle against violent extremists on both sides. British born Imams should go into schools to supplement the teaching of RE, PSHE and Citizenship so that all pupils can learn about the Holy Quran and Islam in the context of a multicultural society. OFSTED must make sure that their services should be fully utilised by the schools, otherwise, it will be waste of public money.
The British Establishment is wrong to assert that Imams and Masajid have been radicalising Muslim youths. The roots of extremism are in the British society and schools where institutional racism is at its peak. The racism within schools has got little media coverage. The school attended by 7/7 bombers in a part of Leeds known for its history of racial tension between British Asians and native Brits. Leeds council was so worried about the violence that it had to call in Foundation for Peace, a government funded peacekeepers who were used to keep Catholics and Protestants from killing one another in Northern Ireland. True message of Islam should be promoted because British media and society have always portrayed Islam in a negative way since Crusades and the siege of Vienna in 1683. School Curriculum should be used to convey a deeper understanding of Islamic faith, history and culture. Prison is not the answer of those who are vulnerable to, or are being drawn into violent extremism unless they have clearly committed an offence.
The greatest challenge to humanity is learning to live in a crowded and interconnected world that is creating unprecedented pressures on human society. The rector of Oxford’s largest Anglican Churches has called a Muslim call to prayers from the main Masjid “un-English”. This is a clear case of intolerance. Gibraltar is a British colony. Five Pound currency note has a queen image on one side and on the other side there is an image of the Muslim Conqueror with a sword in his hand. There is more hatred of Muslims seduced by the Western media, education system and church leaders like Bishop Nazir Ali. Catholic nuns have worn veils for centuries, with no public controversies arising. There is no reason why any girl’s school uniform can not now be modified to include a veil. Wearing a veil to school or to work must be a matter of choice for all.
Iftikhar Ahmad
www.londonschoolofis
lamics.org.uk
The British Establishment is wrong to assert that Imams and Masajid have been radicalising Muslim youths. The roots of extremism are in the British society and schools where institutional racism is at its peak. The racism within schools has got little media coverage. The school attended by 7/7 bombers in a part of Leeds known for its history of racial tension between British Asians and native Brits. Leeds council was so worried about the violence that it had to call in Foundation for Peace, a government funded peacekeepers who were used to keep Catholics and Protestants from killing one another in Northern Ireland. True message of Islam should be promoted because British media and society have always portrayed Islam in a negative way since Crusades and the siege of Vienna in 1683. School Curriculum should be used to convey a deeper understanding of Islamic faith, history and culture. Prison is not the answer of those who are vulnerable to, or are being drawn into violent extremism unless they have clearly committed an offence.
The greatest challenge to humanity is learning to live in a crowded and interconnected world that is creating unprecedented pressures on human society. The rector of Oxford’s largest Anglican Churches has called a Muslim call to prayers from the main Masjid “un-English”. This is a clear case of intolerance. Gibraltar is a British colony. Five Pound currency note has a queen image on one side and on the other side there is an image of the Muslim Conqueror with a sword in his hand. There is more hatred of Muslims seduced by the Western media, education system and church leaders like Bishop Nazir Ali. Catholic nuns have worn veils for centuries, with no public controversies arising. There is no reason why any girl’s school uniform can not now be modified to include a veil. Wearing a veil to school or to work must be a matter of choice for all.
Iftikhar Ahmad
www.londonschoolofis
lamics.org.uk
applebob
says...
9:55pm Wed 17 Dec 08
Iftikhar Ahmad knows what he's talking about.
Undertaker, I understand that your point was that we need to learn from denmark's mistakes, but it does seem that you went into a highly unneccessary degree of detail about Denmark, unless I'm missing something?
My previous point still stands about being assumptious and judgemental about muslims based on a minority irresponsible idiots who claim to be muslims and some exaggerated, biased, and emotionally-stirring (hatred) articles from papers like the Daily Mail, Express, and even The Times (let alone the tabloids that kid themselves into thinking they're real newspapers). These "quality" newspapers have often been found to paint very innaccurate pictures and to report outright lies and fabrication.
Undertaker, I understand that your point was that we need to learn from denmark's mistakes, but it does seem that you went into a highly unneccessary degree of detail about Denmark, unless I'm missing something?
My previous point still stands about being assumptious and judgemental about muslims based on a minority irresponsible idiots who claim to be muslims and some exaggerated, biased, and emotionally-stirring (hatred) articles from papers like the Daily Mail, Express, and even The Times (let alone the tabloids that kid themselves into thinking they're real newspapers). These "quality" newspapers have often been found to paint very innaccurate pictures and to report outright lies and fabrication.
Dr_K
says...
10:52pm Wed 17 Dec 08
1 - What is written about DENMARK is lies and spin against an immigrant population (which is not all Muslim) that have suffered a severe lack of tolerance. I've heard that Daniel Pipes neo-con romantic spin about how tolerant Denmark is & how this was a mistake before. It may have been liberal in personal morals e.g. on sexuality, & socialist, but that does not mean it was tolerant of difference or of minorities, otherwise Stalin's socialist Russia should also be held up as a romantic example of the same by the likes of right-wing neo-con Daniel Pipes et al.
2 - Bans of christmas or nativity plays are ouright FALSE LIES in the Telegrah, Star, and Daily mail. Muslims believe in Jesus, Mary, and the virgin birth from God, so why the hell would they want to ban it?
For those that claim that Islamophobia is fabricated by so called Islamists: See a dictionary definition of 'phobia':
"an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation"
http://www.merriam-w
ebster.com/dictionar
y/phobia
Telegraph Headline: "School cancels Christmas nativity in favour of Muslim Eid celebrations"
"Greenwood Junior School sent out a letter to parents saying the three-day festival of Eid al-Adha, which takes place between December 8 and 11, meant that Muslim children would be off school. That meant planning for the traditional nativity play were shelved because the school felt it would be too difficult to run both celebrations side by side."
Source: Daily Telegraph, 3 December 2008
See also another source the Daily Mail, 4 December 2008
Yes, again it's another of those seasonal "Christmas banned because of Muslims" fake stories. However, according to a Press Association report, the performance has not in fact been cancelled but only postponed till January – and it's not a nativity play but a pantomine (Cinderella, since you ask). A spokeswoman for Nottingham City Council is quoted as saying that in December the school will be staging "a range of events, including a Christmas carol concert and Eid celebrations".
Predictably, the story has been seized on by the BNP. Under the headline "Nottingham school cancels Christmas to make way for Islam", the fascists declare that "such outrages will inevitably progress from the exception to the norm, if Britain fails to embrace the BNP and continues its present headlong plunge into the abyss".
The Nottingham Evening Post reports that Greenwood Junior School has received phone calls from BNP members accusing the school of responsibility for the "erosion of Christian values". In other words, we have here yet another example of the mainstream media's biased and inaccurate reporting giving a boost to the far right.
Inspector Andy Townsend, the local area commander, is quoted as saying: "There have been a lot of angry people phoning the school, some of whom are claiming to be from the BNP. Other agencies including the national press have contacted the school, including one journalist pretending to be a social worker. There's also been vans pulling up and people taking pictures. We are dealing with the potential for disorder. No actual criminal acts have been committed but we are increasing patrols in the area around the school to keep the peace."
Needless to say, this distorted report has spread across the right-wing blogosphere. Here is a characteristic comment, by Phyllis Chesler: "Muslim fanatics are also demographically populating beachheads deep in the West where they are also demanding that their holidays be recognized in a more paramount way than Christian holidays are. Just yesterday, in England, a Nativity play was cancelled at a primary school because it interfered with the Muslim celebration of Eid."
Posted on Thursday, December 4, 2008 by Martin Sullivan
Source: http://www.islamopho
bia-watch.com/islamo
phobia-watch/2008/12
/4/school-cancels-ch
ristmas-nativity-in-
favour-of-muslim-eid
-ce.html
More Islamophobia from the 'respectable' Daily Telegraph:
When a non-Muslim restaurant turned away a guide dog mistakenly on cleanliness, health & safety grounds last week the Telegraph headline read:
"A blind woman was turned away from a restaurant for having a guide dog because it was deemed a health and safety hazard."
http://www.telegraph
.co.uk/news/newstopi
cs/howaboutthat/3683
399/Blind-woman-turn
ed-away-from-Indian-
restaurant-for-havin
g-guide-dog.html
This week, innocently, for exactly the same mistaken reason, Muslims did the same, by innocently misinterpreting health and safety rules, nothing to do with religion, and what did the Telegraph say?:
"Blind man's guide dog barred from restaurant for offending Muslims"
http://www.telegraph
.co.uk/news/newstopi
cs/politics/lawandor
der/3775993/Blind-ma
ns-guide-dog-barred-
from-restaurant-for-
offending-Muslims.ht
ml
When you get to the end of the article, you find the following:
"Shamin Ahmed, a partner in the restaurant, said that he had written to Guide Dogs for the Blind to apologise for the incident. He said that although the owners of the venue are Muslim, he insisted religion was not a factor in the decision to refuse Mr Elder-Brown. 'We were worried about the hygiene, that is what happened, it was a mistake,' he said. 'I have had a letter from Guide Dogs for the Blind, I have sent a reply apologising about that.... we found out afterwards that guide dogs are allowed, I didn't know that'."
Still, never let facts spoil a good anti-Muslim story, eh?
The Daily Star: Shock horror! "Muslims bid to teach your kids!"
Under the typically hate mongering headline "Muslims bid to teach your kids!" the Daily Star reports on proposals for a Muslim faith school in Swindon . Imagine that headline if it were "Jews bid to teach your kids!". So what!? Can't Muslims teach? It's not accurate anyway; it is a school for Muslims, which keeps 50% of places open for non-Muslims, which I would have thought is a good thing! If Muslims' schools didn't keep half the places open, I'm sure there would be hate filled headlines claiming that the school doesn't encourage integration, is insular, etc which leads to terrorism (yawn) etc. It seems Muslim schools are damned if they do, and damned if they don't!
And to assure that readers are suitably offended, stirred into hatred, the Daily Star complements the story with a huge picture of a Muslim woman in a face veil (which less than 1% of muslims wear), as if the headline wasn't misleading enough.
2 - Bans of christmas or nativity plays are ouright FALSE LIES in the Telegrah, Star, and Daily mail. Muslims believe in Jesus, Mary, and the virgin birth from God, so why the hell would they want to ban it?
For those that claim that Islamophobia is fabricated by so called Islamists: See a dictionary definition of 'phobia':
"an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation"
http://www.merriam-w
ebster.com/dictionar
y/phobia
Telegraph Headline: "School cancels Christmas nativity in favour of Muslim Eid celebrations"
"Greenwood Junior School sent out a letter to parents saying the three-day festival of Eid al-Adha, which takes place between December 8 and 11, meant that Muslim children would be off school. That meant planning for the traditional nativity play were shelved because the school felt it would be too difficult to run both celebrations side by side."
Source: Daily Telegraph, 3 December 2008
See also another source the Daily Mail, 4 December 2008
Yes, again it's another of those seasonal "Christmas banned because of Muslims" fake stories. However, according to a Press Association report, the performance has not in fact been cancelled but only postponed till January – and it's not a nativity play but a pantomine (Cinderella, since you ask). A spokeswoman for Nottingham City Council is quoted as saying that in December the school will be staging "a range of events, including a Christmas carol concert and Eid celebrations".
Predictably, the story has been seized on by the BNP. Under the headline "Nottingham school cancels Christmas to make way for Islam", the fascists declare that "such outrages will inevitably progress from the exception to the norm, if Britain fails to embrace the BNP and continues its present headlong plunge into the abyss".
The Nottingham Evening Post reports that Greenwood Junior School has received phone calls from BNP members accusing the school of responsibility for the "erosion of Christian values". In other words, we have here yet another example of the mainstream media's biased and inaccurate reporting giving a boost to the far right.
Inspector Andy Townsend, the local area commander, is quoted as saying: "There have been a lot of angry people phoning the school, some of whom are claiming to be from the BNP. Other agencies including the national press have contacted the school, including one journalist pretending to be a social worker. There's also been vans pulling up and people taking pictures. We are dealing with the potential for disorder. No actual criminal acts have been committed but we are increasing patrols in the area around the school to keep the peace."
Needless to say, this distorted report has spread across the right-wing blogosphere. Here is a characteristic comment, by Phyllis Chesler: "Muslim fanatics are also demographically populating beachheads deep in the West where they are also demanding that their holidays be recognized in a more paramount way than Christian holidays are. Just yesterday, in England, a Nativity play was cancelled at a primary school because it interfered with the Muslim celebration of Eid."
Posted on Thursday, December 4, 2008 by Martin Sullivan
Source: http://www.islamopho
bia-watch.com/islamo
phobia-watch/2008/12
/4/school-cancels-ch
ristmas-nativity-in-
favour-of-muslim-eid
-ce.html
More Islamophobia from the 'respectable' Daily Telegraph:
When a non-Muslim restaurant turned away a guide dog mistakenly on cleanliness, health & safety grounds last week the Telegraph headline read:
"A blind woman was turned away from a restaurant for having a guide dog because it was deemed a health and safety hazard."
http://www.telegraph
.co.uk/news/newstopi
cs/howaboutthat/3683
399/Blind-woman-turn
ed-away-from-Indian-
restaurant-for-havin
g-guide-dog.html
This week, innocently, for exactly the same mistaken reason, Muslims did the same, by innocently misinterpreting health and safety rules, nothing to do with religion, and what did the Telegraph say?:
"Blind man's guide dog barred from restaurant for offending Muslims"
http://www.telegraph
.co.uk/news/newstopi
cs/politics/lawandor
der/3775993/Blind-ma
ns-guide-dog-barred-
from-restaurant-for-
offending-Muslims.ht
ml
When you get to the end of the article, you find the following:
"Shamin Ahmed, a partner in the restaurant, said that he had written to Guide Dogs for the Blind to apologise for the incident. He said that although the owners of the venue are Muslim, he insisted religion was not a factor in the decision to refuse Mr Elder-Brown. 'We were worried about the hygiene, that is what happened, it was a mistake,' he said. 'I have had a letter from Guide Dogs for the Blind, I have sent a reply apologising about that.... we found out afterwards that guide dogs are allowed, I didn't know that'."
Still, never let facts spoil a good anti-Muslim story, eh?
The Daily Star: Shock horror! "Muslims bid to teach your kids!"
Under the typically hate mongering headline "Muslims bid to teach your kids!" the Daily Star reports on proposals for a Muslim faith school in Swindon . Imagine that headline if it were "Jews bid to teach your kids!". So what!? Can't Muslims teach? It's not accurate anyway; it is a school for Muslims, which keeps 50% of places open for non-Muslims, which I would have thought is a good thing! If Muslims' schools didn't keep half the places open, I'm sure there would be hate filled headlines claiming that the school doesn't encourage integration, is insular, etc which leads to terrorism (yawn) etc. It seems Muslim schools are damned if they do, and damned if they don't!
And to assure that readers are suitably offended, stirred into hatred, the Daily Star complements the story with a huge picture of a Muslim woman in a face veil (which less than 1% of muslims wear), as if the headline wasn't misleading enough.
shiva
says...
11:08am Thu 18 Dec 08
applebob wrote:Iftikhar Ahmad knows what he's talking about
Iftikhar Ahmad knows what he's talking about.
Undertaker, I understand that your point was that we need to learn from denmark's mistakes, but it does seem that you went into a highly unneccessary degree of detail about Denmark, unless I'm missing something?
My previous point still stands about being assumptious and judgemental about muslims based on a minority irresponsible idiots who claim to be muslims and some exaggerated, biased, and emotionally-stirring (hatred) articles from papers like the Daily Mail, Express, and even The Times (let alone the tabloids that kid themselves into thinking they're real newspapers). These "quality" newspapers have often been found to paint very innaccurate pictures and to report outright lies and fabrication.
He sure does, but how many oter here know what he is talking about.
Iftikhar Ahmad cleverly attempts to shift the blame of extremism onto the British society and schools and claims that institutional racism is at its peak.
He then states that racism within schools has got little media coverage. The school attended by 7/7 bombers in a part of Leeds known for its history of racial tension between British Asians and native Brits.
This statement is very misleading because he use the word Asian.
Asian includes Hindus and Buddhist,s yet we do not see Buddhists and Hindus creating terror around the world, nor do we see them demanding that we should confirm to their beliefs.
Also the blame is put onto racism, now could any-one please exlain, what race is Islam.
Let us not forget that Mr Iftikhar Ahmad www.londonschoolofis
lamics.org.uk
Is well versed in the art of taqiyya
Which for those that do not know Taqiyya is where muslim are allowed to use sly, saccharine-sweet lies in the defense of Islam
So, Ladies and gentlemen Mr Iftikhar Ahmad blames the brits for racism, yet would not like us to see what can be found in the holy scriptures
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’”
Qur’an 8:39 - “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
Qur'an 5: 51 -"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."
Qur’an 3:118 - “Believers! Take not into your intimacy those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, and Christians). They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin...".
Oh, and this lovely text from Muslim tradition:
"When judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim, a Jew or Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire" (Mishkat Al-Messabih, no. 5552).
I would like people to understand there are many different cultures in Asia. Yet Islamist have over the last thousand years murdered more than 100,000,000 Hindus and Buddhists so as to achieve islamc peace
And Applebob I agree, These "quality" newspapers have often been found to paint very innaccurate pictures and to report outright lies and fabrication.
Google churches destroyed Indonesia
Google Genocide India
Google Genocide Bangladesh
Google Churhill Islam
A University of Life Sage
says...
11:51am Thu 18 Dec 08
Black or White
Left or right
Up or down
Right or wrong
Who can say who's telling the truth here?
One things for sure, the dangerously radical muslims must be brought to heel and it can only be done by other muslims.
Come on you muslims and act now - 99.9% of you are OK but you must sort out those within your communities that are not
Left or right
Up or down
Right or wrong
Who can say who's telling the truth here?
One things for sure, the dangerously radical muslims must be brought to heel and it can only be done by other muslims.
Come on you muslims and act now - 99.9% of you are OK but you must sort out those within your communities that are not
Dr_K
says...
12:40pm Thu 18 Dec 08
Malang Shiva YOU LIAR! I did a search for those verses in the Quran that you falsely refer to. THEY DON'T EXIST! Some verses in the Quran (not your false ones) refer to battles that happened at the time, but they are commentary on what happened, not commands for Muslims. Your references simply don't exist, you are stirring up hatred with lies.
And I did Google 'genocide India ' and guess what came up!? Indian Army killing Kashmiri Muslims, and Hindu terrorists in Gujrat genocide of Muslims in 2002.
Your claim that "we do not see Buddhists and Hindus creating terror around the world, nor do we see them demanding that we should confirm to their beliefs" is palpably FALSE:
New York Times Headline: "Hindu Threat to Christians: Convert or Flee"
"The forced conversions come amid widening attacks on Christians here (in Indian Orissa) and in at least five other states across the country.... Here in Kandhamal, the district that has seen the greatest violence, more than 30 people have been killed, 3,000 homes burned and over 130 churches destroyed"
Reuters Headline: "India wonders how deep Hindu terrorism goes"..."Reports that Hindu militants may be involved in bomb attacks first blamed on Islamists may open a Pandora's Box for India's beleaguered security services"
http://in.reuters.co
m/article/topNews/id
INIndia-365464200811
17
your statement that "Islamists" have killed 100,000,000 people is baseless and false hate merchantry!
CHECK YOUR FACTS AND ACCURACY BEFORE YOU POST MORE BULL!
And I did Google 'genocide India ' and guess what came up!? Indian Army killing Kashmiri Muslims, and Hindu terrorists in Gujrat genocide of Muslims in 2002.
Your claim that "we do not see Buddhists and Hindus creating terror around the world, nor do we see them demanding that we should confirm to their beliefs" is palpably FALSE:
New York Times Headline: "Hindu Threat to Christians: Convert or Flee"
"The forced conversions come amid widening attacks on Christians here (in Indian Orissa) and in at least five other states across the country.... Here in Kandhamal, the district that has seen the greatest violence, more than 30 people have been killed, 3,000 homes burned and over 130 churches destroyed"
Reuters Headline: "India wonders how deep Hindu terrorism goes"..."Reports that Hindu militants may be involved in bomb attacks first blamed on Islamists may open a Pandora's Box for India's beleaguered security services"
http://in.reuters.co
m/article/topNews/id
INIndia-365464200811
17
your statement that "Islamists" have killed 100,000,000 people is baseless and false hate merchantry!
CHECK YOUR FACTS AND ACCURACY BEFORE YOU POST MORE BULL!
Mad 'M'
says...
12:50pm Thu 18 Dec 08
A University of Life Sage wrote:At 'the end of the day' everyone will know who was telling the truth.
Black or White Left or right Up or down Right or wrong Who can say who's telling the truth here? One things for sure, the dangerously radical muslims must be brought to heel and it can only be done by other muslims. Come on you muslims and act now - 99.9% of you are OK but you must sort out those within your communities that are not
Dr_K
says...
12:53pm Thu 18 Dec 08
"A University of Life Sage, Leigh says...Come on you Muslims and act now - 99.9% of you are OK but you must sort out those within your communities that are not"
I agree with your sentiment, but how the are Muslims going to crack down on terrorists "within" their communities, they live in non-Muslim communities across the country. The borough with the highest percentage of Muslims is Tower Hamelts at 37%, which is still a minority. YOu may have higher % of ASIAN communities but they are not majority Muslim. And what are they supposed to do? Become vigilantes and start reporting anyone they think is a terrorist? This tactic was attempted with catholic communities, and all that happened was Catholics would report people that they owed money to, getting them falsely arrested and wasting police time, while the IRA continued.
The job of stopping terrorists belongs to the police, and intelligence services WITH the cooperation of the community. If they spent less time cooking up false intelligence about WMD and Iran, and more time advising the government that whenever you invade a country, violent responses are inevitable until there is a political solution (i.e. the colonialist aggressive foreign policy is changed), terrorism will unfortunately continue and eventually one of the plots will get through the net.
ANYWAY! WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH ATTACKING INNOCENT PEOPLE IN SOUTHEND MOSQUE!? Isn't the intentional targeting of innocent civilians by violence the very definition of terrorism?!
I agree with your sentiment, but how the are Muslims going to crack down on terrorists "within" their communities, they live in non-Muslim communities across the country. The borough with the highest percentage of Muslims is Tower Hamelts at 37%, which is still a minority. YOu may have higher % of ASIAN communities but they are not majority Muslim. And what are they supposed to do? Become vigilantes and start reporting anyone they think is a terrorist? This tactic was attempted with catholic communities, and all that happened was Catholics would report people that they owed money to, getting them falsely arrested and wasting police time, while the IRA continued.
The job of stopping terrorists belongs to the police, and intelligence services WITH the cooperation of the community. If they spent less time cooking up false intelligence about WMD and Iran, and more time advising the government that whenever you invade a country, violent responses are inevitable until there is a political solution (i.e. the colonialist aggressive foreign policy is changed), terrorism will unfortunately continue and eventually one of the plots will get through the net.
ANYWAY! WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH ATTACKING INNOCENT PEOPLE IN SOUTHEND MOSQUE!? Isn't the intentional targeting of innocent civilians by violence the very definition of terrorism?!
perini12
says...
1:08pm Thu 18 Dec 08
Iftikhar wrote:You're missing the point - this is England. You live by our rules or you know where the door is. Why should the indigenous population alter to the migrants viewpoint. If its so marvellous why not go and live in a Muslim country? Perhaps its because there's no welfare state to ponce off?? As the Australians are fond of saying: you are welcome if you abide by our rules, practise whatever religion you want to but don't force it down our necks, and if you don't like it you have choices - the choice to leave
The debate over the trajectory of the western sociopolitical system and its strained relations with Islam is the most pivotal of our time. Muslims are in one of the most difficult phases of their history when malicious attacks including allegation of terrorism are being made on Islam and Muslims all over the world. The malicious campaign against Muslims is politically motivated. The world is obsessed by Islam. Anti-terror measures are ruining lives of Muslim youths. If you go around arresting young Muslims, you are going to find that you are going to ostracise this community. Young Muslims don’t need to be ostracized, they need to be engaged. According to the Arch Bishop, Rowan Williams, acceptance of some facets of Sharia not only “seems unavoidable”, but could actually improve social cohesion. Muslims should be able to choose to have marital or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia Court. Such courts should therefore be incorporated into the British legal system as a constructive accommodation with Islam. Schools are being asked to help “win hearts and minds” in the battle against violent extremists on both sides. British born Imams should go into schools to supplement the teaching of RE, PSHE and Citizenship so that all pupils can learn about the Holy Quran and Islam in the context of a multicultural society. OFSTED must make sure that their services should be fully utilised by the schools, otherwise, it will be waste of public money. The British Establishment is wrong to assert that Imams and Masajid have been radicalising Muslim youths. The roots of extremism are in the British society and schools where institutional racism is at its peak. The racism within schools has got little media coverage. The school attended by 7/7 bombers in a part of Leeds known for its history of racial tension between British Asians and native Brits. Leeds council was so worried about the violence that it had to call in Foundation for Peace, a government funded peacekeepers who were used to keep Catholics and Protestants from killing one another in Northern Ireland. True message of Islam should be promoted because British media and society have always portrayed Islam in a negative way since Crusades and the siege of Vienna in 1683. School Curriculum should be used to convey a deeper understanding of Islamic faith, history and culture. Prison is not the answer of those who are vulnerable to, or are being drawn into violent extremism unless they have clearly committed an offence. The greatest challenge to humanity is learning to live in a crowded and interconnected world that is creating unprecedented pressures on human society. The rector of Oxford’s largest Anglican Churches has called a Muslim call to prayers from the main Masjid “un-English”. This is a clear case of intolerance. Gibraltar is a British colony. Five Pound currency note has a queen image on one side and on the other side there is an image of the Muslim Conqueror with a sword in his hand. There is more hatred of Muslims seduced by the Western media, education system and church leaders like Bishop Nazir Ali. Catholic nuns have worn veils for centuries, with no public controversies arising. There is no reason why any girl’s school uniform can not now be modified to include a veil. Wearing a veil to school or to work must be a matter of choice for all. Iftikhar Ahmad www.londonschoolofis lamics.org.uk
Dr_K
says...
1:42pm Thu 18 Dec 08
*perini12, Leigh on Sea said:
"why not go and live in a Muslim country? Perhaps its because there's no welfare state to ponce off?"*
Wow! What intelligent debate! NOT!
This typecasting slur falsely assumes that Muslims in Southend or England as whole generally "ponce off" the state! This is simply a false stereotype like saying "blacks ponce off the state".
You define "our rules" to be the exclusive right of what you call "the indigenous population" i.e. white Anglo-Saxons. So browns & blacks shouldn't have a say in what or how "your" country is run or it's rules Because it's not "theirs". There's a word for that, it begins with R. Can you spell it in "your" language?
2- You assume all Muslims are immigrants or children of immigrants, neglecting the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of "indigenous" white Muslims in the UK, some very famous e.g. Cat Stevens, Yvonne Ridley, Charles Yarborough (the current Earl of Yarborough) or or Jemima Goldsmith. You falsely conflate Islam, immigration, race and "indigenousness" and welfare. Most British Muslims are not immigrants, they are born and bread in the UK.
3- And if you really want to get technical, Anglo-Saxons white (like you) shouldn't have been allowed to change the rules here either because you are either Anglo or Saxon, i.e. invaders from Germany, or you are a descendent of the Normans, i.e Invaders from France in 1066! Let's get the real indigenous Brits, the Welsh back in charge of Britain, make Welsh or Gaelic the official language, and if you don't "their rules", you know where the door is!
Of course I forgot we live in a democracy with equal rights for all citizens to debate, discuss and campaign for changes in rules, regardless of origin.
Whoops! thats a foreign idea originiating with the Greeks & Arabs too! Argh!
"why not go and live in a Muslim country? Perhaps its because there's no welfare state to ponce off?"*
Wow! What intelligent debate! NOT!
This typecasting slur falsely assumes that Muslims in Southend or England as whole generally "ponce off" the state! This is simply a false stereotype like saying "blacks ponce off the state".
You define "our rules" to be the exclusive right of what you call "the indigenous population" i.e. white Anglo-Saxons. So browns & blacks shouldn't have a say in what or how "your" country is run or it's rules Because it's not "theirs". There's a word for that, it begins with R. Can you spell it in "your" language?
2- You assume all Muslims are immigrants or children of immigrants, neglecting the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of "indigenous" white Muslims in the UK, some very famous e.g. Cat Stevens, Yvonne Ridley, Charles Yarborough (the current Earl of Yarborough) or or Jemima Goldsmith. You falsely conflate Islam, immigration, race and "indigenousness" and welfare. Most British Muslims are not immigrants, they are born and bread in the UK.
3- And if you really want to get technical, Anglo-Saxons white (like you) shouldn't have been allowed to change the rules here either because you are either Anglo or Saxon, i.e. invaders from Germany, or you are a descendent of the Normans, i.e Invaders from France in 1066! Let's get the real indigenous Brits, the Welsh back in charge of Britain, make Welsh or Gaelic the official language, and if you don't "their rules", you know where the door is!
Of course I forgot we live in a democracy with equal rights for all citizens to debate, discuss and campaign for changes in rules, regardless of origin.
Whoops! thats a foreign idea originiating with the Greeks & Arabs too! Argh!
Dave G
says...
2:40pm Thu 18 Dec 08
Perini, by 'our rules' you actually mean your rules, don't you? Exactly the sort of arrogant assumption we're used to from hard-right sympathisers.
Lets not forget that one of 'our' rules is that it's wrong to attack someone else's property, so in this article it's clearly the people of the Mosque who have been wronged. They are indeed happy to abide by 'our' rules, yet people seem to imply that they're not.
If we start holding whole races or religions accountable for the crimes committed by a few, the only future for this world is war and ruin.
Show immigrants the door? How far back in history do you want to go?
You mention the case of Australia. Should the aboriginals rise up and show the white settlers the door? The Australian government has committed terrible wrongs against them within living memory.
Were Irish catholics right to try to force out protestant settlers by violence? They were trying to show immigrants, who certainly didn't play by their rules, the door. I doubt if you'd have much sympathy for the IRA somehow, even though they were following your doctrine to the letter.
What about the native americans?
The kind of attitude you promote can only lead to endless bloodshed.
Lets not forget that one of 'our' rules is that it's wrong to attack someone else's property, so in this article it's clearly the people of the Mosque who have been wronged. They are indeed happy to abide by 'our' rules, yet people seem to imply that they're not.
If we start holding whole races or religions accountable for the crimes committed by a few, the only future for this world is war and ruin.
Show immigrants the door? How far back in history do you want to go?
You mention the case of Australia. Should the aboriginals rise up and show the white settlers the door? The Australian government has committed terrible wrongs against them within living memory.
Were Irish catholics right to try to force out protestant settlers by violence? They were trying to show immigrants, who certainly didn't play by their rules, the door. I doubt if you'd have much sympathy for the IRA somehow, even though they were following your doctrine to the letter.
What about the native americans?
The kind of attitude you promote can only lead to endless bloodshed.
undertaker
says...
5:06pm Thu 18 Dec 08
A draft report, commission by well-known think tank Civitas has reported that over 60 percent of Muslim schools are linked to potentially dangerous Islamic fundamentalists.
An early version of the report, entitled When Worlds Collide, alleges that of the 133 Muslim primary and secondary schools it surveyed, 82 (61.6 percent) have connections or direct affiliations to fundamentalists. The 133 schools are in the private sector but supposedly subject to Ofsted inspection.
The report, written by Denis MacEoin in response to a commission from Civitas, also claims that some of these schools teach “repugnant” beliefs about the wickedness of Western society and Jews.
MacEoin has been careful to back up his claims with evidence — in particular, screen captures of links to Islamic hate-mongers, including supporters of Al-Qaeda.
Civitas, however, is not prepared to endorse MacEoin’s 61.6 percent figure, which will not appear in the published version of When Worlds Collide. A spokesman for Civitas said: “We want to concentrate on claims that are absolutely robust, rather than complicated material, some of it in Arabic, that might unjustly damage someone’s reputation.”
The draft also claims that many of these schools (including ones with no connections to political extremism) are basing their education programmes on Koranic injunctions and Sharia law.
The schools known as Darul Ulooms, which base their curriculum on a seventeenth-century Indian teaching system, include very few secular subjects, claims the report. It says: “Their aim is not to prepare pupils for life in the wider world, but to give them the tools for a more limited existence inside the Muslim enclaves.”
The numbers are increasing fast, and there is confusion over how many schools exist. The growth of non-Muslim schools, says MacEoin, is “hugely overshadowed by a rapidly growing sector of Muslim institutions. These now number 127 full-time schools and an estimated 700 part-time madrassas for intense religious instruction, and that doesn’t include the Darul Uloom seminaries.
“Many recreate in the UK the style and content of schooling that can be found in Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.”
An early version of the report, entitled When Worlds Collide, alleges that of the 133 Muslim primary and secondary schools it surveyed, 82 (61.6 percent) have connections or direct affiliations to fundamentalists. The 133 schools are in the private sector but supposedly subject to Ofsted inspection.
The report, written by Denis MacEoin in response to a commission from Civitas, also claims that some of these schools teach “repugnant” beliefs about the wickedness of Western society and Jews.
MacEoin has been careful to back up his claims with evidence — in particular, screen captures of links to Islamic hate-mongers, including supporters of Al-Qaeda.
Civitas, however, is not prepared to endorse MacEoin’s 61.6 percent figure, which will not appear in the published version of When Worlds Collide. A spokesman for Civitas said: “We want to concentrate on claims that are absolutely robust, rather than complicated material, some of it in Arabic, that might unjustly damage someone’s reputation.”
The draft also claims that many of these schools (including ones with no connections to political extremism) are basing their education programmes on Koranic injunctions and Sharia law.
The schools known as Darul Ulooms, which base their curriculum on a seventeenth-century Indian teaching system, include very few secular subjects, claims the report. It says: “Their aim is not to prepare pupils for life in the wider world, but to give them the tools for a more limited existence inside the Muslim enclaves.”
The numbers are increasing fast, and there is confusion over how many schools exist. The growth of non-Muslim schools, says MacEoin, is “hugely overshadowed by a rapidly growing sector of Muslim institutions. These now number 127 full-time schools and an estimated 700 part-time madrassas for intense religious instruction, and that doesn’t include the Darul Uloom seminaries.
“Many recreate in the UK the style and content of schooling that can be found in Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.”
meldearlove@btinternet.com
says...
6:33pm Thu 18 Dec 08
Hopefully the sad people that attacked the mosque will be caught and dealt with in the appropriate way.
Toussaint
says...
6:43pm Thu 18 Dec 08
Interesting how an attack on a local mosque by a group of young rogues lets the racists off their perch with their wild lies and tall stories. We have heard it all before and are not impressed.
Take your foolish opinions back to your bunkers where you dream of sieg heiling down your local high streets.
Take your foolish opinions back to your bunkers where you dream of sieg heiling down your local high streets.
shiva
says...
3:12am Fri 19 Dec 08
Dr_K, Westcliff
The surahs I quoted according to you do not exist, I would not say that to a muslim if I was you. Thats if you want to keep your head.
They exist, though in English the modern translations(incorre
ct) say cut them off at the roots, where as the correct translation says strike them at the neck.
It seems that there is plenty of white washing going on at google, so anybody that has Indian Hindu friends, ask the about the muslims in India.
Ask them about Timur Lane or Akbar
Ask the about Hindu Kush
Encyclopaedia Americana says of Hindu Kush: The name means literally 'Kills the Hindu', a reminder of the days when Hindu slaves from Indian subcontinent died in harsh Afghan mountains while being transported to Moslem courts of Central Asia. While Encyclopaedia Britannica mentions "that the name Hindu Kush first appears in 1333 AD in the writings of Ibn Battutah, the medireview Berber traveller, who said the name meant 'Hindu Killer', a meaning still given by Afghan mountain dwellers who are traditional enemies of Hindus".
"Unlike the Jewish holocaust, writes again Vyas, the exact toll of the Hindu genocide suggested by the name Hindu Kush is not available. However the number is easily likely to be in millions". A few known historical figures can be used to justify this estimate. Encyclopaedia Britannica recalls that in December 1398 AD, Timur Lane ordered the execution of at least 50,000 captives before the battle for Delhi; likewise, the number of captives butchered by Timur Lane's army was about 100,000 .
Encyclopaedia Britannica again mentions that Mughal emperor Akbar 'ordered the massacre of about 30,000 captured Rajput Hindus on February 24, 1568 AD, after the battle for Chitod, a number confirmed by Abul Fazl, Akbar's court historian. Afghan historian Khondamir records that during one of the many repeated invasions on the city of Herat in western Afghanistan, which used to be part of the Hindu Shahiya kingdoms "1,500,000 residents perished".
Dr_K, Westcliff
I notice you could not refute me about churches in Indonesia. I happened to witness the burning of 26 Churches in one day, in Situbonbo East Java.
You could not refute the turkish genocides
Winston Churchill on Islam
How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.
No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.
The River War
When he was describing Nazism, Churchill said: "An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last." He also said: "Victory will never be found by taking the line of least resistance." Those words should be heeded. In the current struggle against the spread of Islamism, they are as true today as they were 65 years ago.
Here is something that should be taught in schools
http://tellthechildr
enthetruth.com/galle
ry/
The surahs I quoted according to you do not exist, I would not say that to a muslim if I was you. Thats if you want to keep your head.
They exist, though in English the modern translations(incorre
ct) say cut them off at the roots, where as the correct translation says strike them at the neck.
It seems that there is plenty of white washing going on at google, so anybody that has Indian Hindu friends, ask the about the muslims in India.
Ask them about Timur Lane or Akbar
Ask the about Hindu Kush
Encyclopaedia Americana says of Hindu Kush: The name means literally 'Kills the Hindu', a reminder of the days when Hindu slaves from Indian subcontinent died in harsh Afghan mountains while being transported to Moslem courts of Central Asia. While Encyclopaedia Britannica mentions "that the name Hindu Kush first appears in 1333 AD in the writings of Ibn Battutah, the medireview Berber traveller, who said the name meant 'Hindu Killer', a meaning still given by Afghan mountain dwellers who are traditional enemies of Hindus".
"Unlike the Jewish holocaust, writes again Vyas, the exact toll of the Hindu genocide suggested by the name Hindu Kush is not available. However the number is easily likely to be in millions". A few known historical figures can be used to justify this estimate. Encyclopaedia Britannica recalls that in December 1398 AD, Timur Lane ordered the execution of at least 50,000 captives before the battle for Delhi; likewise, the number of captives butchered by Timur Lane's army was about 100,000 .
Encyclopaedia Britannica again mentions that Mughal emperor Akbar 'ordered the massacre of about 30,000 captured Rajput Hindus on February 24, 1568 AD, after the battle for Chitod, a number confirmed by Abul Fazl, Akbar's court historian. Afghan historian Khondamir records that during one of the many repeated invasions on the city of Herat in western Afghanistan, which used to be part of the Hindu Shahiya kingdoms "1,500,000 residents perished".
Dr_K, Westcliff
I notice you could not refute me about churches in Indonesia. I happened to witness the burning of 26 Churches in one day, in Situbonbo East Java.
You could not refute the turkish genocides
Winston Churchill on Islam
How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.
No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.
The River War
When he was describing Nazism, Churchill said: "An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last." He also said: "Victory will never be found by taking the line of least resistance." Those words should be heeded. In the current struggle against the spread of Islamism, they are as true today as they were 65 years ago.
Here is something that should be taught in schools
http://tellthechildr
enthetruth.com/galle
ry/
shiva
says...
3:20am Fri 19 Dec 08
There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Islam. A first glance at important testimonies by Muslim chroniclers suggests that, over 13 centuries and a territory as vast as the Subcontinent, Muslim Holy Warriors easily killed more Hindus than the 6 million of the Holocaust. Ferishtha lists several occasions when the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed a hundred thousand Hindus, which they set as a minimum goal whenever they felt like "punishing" the Hindus; and they were only a third-rank provincial dynasty. The biggest slaughters took place during the raids of Mahmud Ghaznavi (ca. 1000 CE); during the actual conquest of North India by Mohammed Ghori and his lieutenants (1192 ff.); and under the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526). The Moghuls (1526-1857), even Babar and Aurangzeb, were fairly restrained tyrants by comparison. Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.
Note that attempts are made to deny this history. In Indian schoolbooks and the media, an idyllic picture of Hindu-Muslim harmony in the pre-British period is propagated in outright contradiction with the testimony of the primary sources. Like Holocaust denial, this propaganda can be called negationism. The really daring negationists don't just deny the crimes against Hindus, they invert the picture and blame the Hindus themselves. Thus, it is routinely alleged that Hindus persecuted and destroyed Buddhism; in reality, Buddhist monasteries and universities flourished under Hindu rule, but their thousands of monks were killed by Ghori and his lieutenants.
Apart from actual killing, millions of Hindus disappeared by way of enslavement. After every conquest by a Muslim invader, slave markets in Bagdad and Samarkand were flooded with Hindus. Slaves were likely to die of hardship, e.g. the mountain range Hindu Koh, "Indian mountain", was renamed Hindu Kush, "Hindu-killer", when one cold night in the reign of Timur Lenk (1398-99), a hundred thousand Hindu slaves died there while on transport to Central Asia. Though Timur conquered Delhi from another Muslim ruler, he recorded in his journal that he made sure his pillaging soldiers spared the Muslim quarter, while in the Hindu areas, they took "twenty slaves each". Hindu slaves were converted to Islam, and when their descendants gained their freedom, they swelled the numbers of the Muslim community. It is a cruel twist of history that the Muslims who forced Partition on India were partly the progeny of Hindus enslaved by Islam.
Note that attempts are made to deny this history. In Indian schoolbooks and the media, an idyllic picture of Hindu-Muslim harmony in the pre-British period is propagated in outright contradiction with the testimony of the primary sources. Like Holocaust denial, this propaganda can be called negationism. The really daring negationists don't just deny the crimes against Hindus, they invert the picture and blame the Hindus themselves. Thus, it is routinely alleged that Hindus persecuted and destroyed Buddhism; in reality, Buddhist monasteries and universities flourished under Hindu rule, but their thousands of monks were killed by Ghori and his lieutenants.
Apart from actual killing, millions of Hindus disappeared by way of enslavement. After every conquest by a Muslim invader, slave markets in Bagdad and Samarkand were flooded with Hindus. Slaves were likely to die of hardship, e.g. the mountain range Hindu Koh, "Indian mountain", was renamed Hindu Kush, "Hindu-killer", when one cold night in the reign of Timur Lenk (1398-99), a hundred thousand Hindu slaves died there while on transport to Central Asia. Though Timur conquered Delhi from another Muslim ruler, he recorded in his journal that he made sure his pillaging soldiers spared the Muslim quarter, while in the Hindu areas, they took "twenty slaves each". Hindu slaves were converted to Islam, and when their descendants gained their freedom, they swelled the numbers of the Muslim community. It is a cruel twist of history that the Muslims who forced Partition on India were partly the progeny of Hindus enslaved by Islam.
A University of Life Sage
says...
8:14am Fri 19 Dec 08
It looks like this thread has descended into "whos's right, who's wrong" ping-pong so to all you muslims, hindus, jews, christians et al
Enjoy your faith in the privacy of your own minds and places of worship. Don't try and ram your opinions and philophesies down the throats of other people because it always has and always will cause trouble
Merry Christmas and peace to you all
Enjoy your faith in the privacy of your own minds and places of worship. Don't try and ram your opinions and philophesies down the throats of other people because it always has and always will cause trouble
Merry Christmas and peace to you all
Dr_K
says...
10:49am Fri 19 Dec 08
shiva, Malang,
YOu are peddling hatred of Muslims today, trying to justify the attack on Southend mosque, by quoting a biased narrative of death tolls from battles between Muslims and Hindus from almost 1000 years ago! Yes I'm sure in the medieval times Muslims massacred Hindus, Hindus massacred Muslims, Christians massacred Muslims in the Crusades, and the British killed 10 million Indians after 1857, and Mongols massacred pretty much everyone, including every man, women child, pet animal, and book in the cities of Merv and Baghdad etc etc. That was the medieval era!
To bring ancient massacres and wars up and try to apply it as some sort of justification for modern revenge hundreds of years later is exactly what Hitler did to justify killing jews, Serbian war criminal Nazis Milosevic, and Karadzic used exactly the same style of propaganda against Bosnians to kill them, and what Hutus did to kill tutsis in the Rwandan genocide. Your language is the language of genocide and revenge for very ancient wars. What you quote from 1000 years ago making it applicable today is like the welsh trying to get revenge on all those of Normandy heritage who invaded with Wiliam the Conquerer in 1066! Or the Scottish people getting revenge on the English for what happened hundreds of years ago!
This is exactly the kind of language via "history lessons" in India today being propagated by Hindutva terrorists groups like RSS, Shiv Sena, et al to justify killing Indian Christians & Muslims today (see the NY times article above). It is also the language of justification that USama Bin Laden uses, disproportionate, and indiscrimate revenge for historical wrongs - you are the same.
Also taqiya is actually only a Shia belief, and even then, only when your life is under threat you are permitted to deny your belief and drink alcohol or worship an idol. It is not a blank cheque for lieing and propoganda like you say, this is typical Islamophobic lies.
And I'll give you another quote from Winston Churchill in which he said he is in favour of gassing the Kurds:
"Churchill was particularly keen on chemical weapons, suggesting they be used "against recalcitrant Arabs as an experiment". He dismissed objections as "unreasonable". He said "I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes... spread a lively terror...""
Source: www.guardian.co.uk/w
orld/2003/apr/19/ira
q.arts
SO when did he become an almighty god worthy of referring to for the moral high ground?
Regarding my lack of "refutation" of your claim of churches being burned in Indonesia: I notice you still haven't addressed my credibly referenced evidence (unlike yours) that Hindu terrorist groups have massacred and killed christians, including **BURNING 130 CHURCHES** in one district in Orissa (India), only a couple of months ago, but you are harking back to an incident in Indonesia over 10 years ago?! Your silence speaks more on this issue than your obfuscation of the issue which is nnocent muslims have been attacked in Southend Mosque. I don't deny that churches have been burned in Indonesia, I'm not here to defend that, but you seem to have a "Hindus are perfect and Muslim are the root of all global evil" mentality when you claimed that "We do not see Hindus creating terror around the world, nor do we see them demanding that we should confirm to their beliefs."
And your last link you posted!? WTF!? That is one Muslim cleric that allied himself with Hitler, so? What's the relevence? How many Catholics, and Protestants were Nazis? Do you think people are that stupid that they will see a pic of a Imam next to hitler and then conclude all muslims and Islam is Nazi? That logic again is the same logic hitler used to demonise all jews - you really should go and see a counsellor for your hatred.
I'm not stupid I have double checked your fake Quran references - with multiple translations & do have Indian Hindu friends, my ex-wife was Indian, and Southend has many Indian doctors including many Indian Muslim doctors.
Again look up the word phobia, and I think you fit the definition fare and square:
"an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation"
www.merriam-webster.
com/dictionary/phobi
a
YOu are peddling hatred of Muslims today, trying to justify the attack on Southend mosque, by quoting a biased narrative of death tolls from battles between Muslims and Hindus from almost 1000 years ago! Yes I'm sure in the medieval times Muslims massacred Hindus, Hindus massacred Muslims, Christians massacred Muslims in the Crusades, and the British killed 10 million Indians after 1857, and Mongols massacred pretty much everyone, including every man, women child, pet animal, and book in the cities of Merv and Baghdad etc etc. That was the medieval era!
To bring ancient massacres and wars up and try to apply it as some sort of justification for modern revenge hundreds of years later is exactly what Hitler did to justify killing jews, Serbian war criminal Nazis Milosevic, and Karadzic used exactly the same style of propaganda against Bosnians to kill them, and what Hutus did to kill tutsis in the Rwandan genocide. Your language is the language of genocide and revenge for very ancient wars. What you quote from 1000 years ago making it applicable today is like the welsh trying to get revenge on all those of Normandy heritage who invaded with Wiliam the Conquerer in 1066! Or the Scottish people getting revenge on the English for what happened hundreds of years ago!
This is exactly the kind of language via "history lessons" in India today being propagated by Hindutva terrorists groups like RSS, Shiv Sena, et al to justify killing Indian Christians & Muslims today (see the NY times article above). It is also the language of justification that USama Bin Laden uses, disproportionate, and indiscrimate revenge for historical wrongs - you are the same.
Also taqiya is actually only a Shia belief, and even then, only when your life is under threat you are permitted to deny your belief and drink alcohol or worship an idol. It is not a blank cheque for lieing and propoganda like you say, this is typical Islamophobic lies.
And I'll give you another quote from Winston Churchill in which he said he is in favour of gassing the Kurds:
"Churchill was particularly keen on chemical weapons, suggesting they be used "against recalcitrant Arabs as an experiment". He dismissed objections as "unreasonable". He said "I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes... spread a lively terror...""
Source: www.guardian.co.uk/w
orld/2003/apr/19/ira
q.arts
SO when did he become an almighty god worthy of referring to for the moral high ground?
Regarding my lack of "refutation" of your claim of churches being burned in Indonesia: I notice you still haven't addressed my credibly referenced evidence (unlike yours) that Hindu terrorist groups have massacred and killed christians, including **BURNING 130 CHURCHES** in one district in Orissa (India), only a couple of months ago, but you are harking back to an incident in Indonesia over 10 years ago?! Your silence speaks more on this issue than your obfuscation of the issue which is nnocent muslims have been attacked in Southend Mosque. I don't deny that churches have been burned in Indonesia, I'm not here to defend that, but you seem to have a "Hindus are perfect and Muslim are the root of all global evil" mentality when you claimed that "We do not see Hindus creating terror around the world, nor do we see them demanding that we should confirm to their beliefs."
And your last link you posted!? WTF!? That is one Muslim cleric that allied himself with Hitler, so? What's the relevence? How many Catholics, and Protestants were Nazis? Do you think people are that stupid that they will see a pic of a Imam next to hitler and then conclude all muslims and Islam is Nazi? That logic again is the same logic hitler used to demonise all jews - you really should go and see a counsellor for your hatred.
I'm not stupid I have double checked your fake Quran references - with multiple translations & do have Indian Hindu friends, my ex-wife was Indian, and Southend has many Indian doctors including many Indian Muslim doctors.
Again look up the word phobia, and I think you fit the definition fare and square:
"an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation"
www.merriam-webster.
com/dictionary/phobi
a
Dr_K
says...
11:25am Fri 19 Dec 08
undertaker, crays hill:
I fail to see what relevance that article from the TELEGRAPH has to the fact that an innocent Imam and mosque have been attacked unless you're trying to somehow justify violence, which is what terrorists do: justify violence against normal people.
I wouldn't take that article seriously either, because:
1 - It is from the TELEGRAPH which I have already shown to print many false articles abut Muslims, see above.
2 - It is not even a news article, it is from The Telegraph blog, a blog written by Damian Thompson, which is not subject to any regulations related to accuracy, unlike news articles, so probably a load of BS. Damian Thomson is editor of the CATHOLIC HERALD so he is not exactly balanced, he will obviously be biased. Have a look at his list of articles:
blogs.telegraph.co.u
k/damian_thompson
3- Damian got the DRAFT report from Denis MacEoin who authored the report. MacEoin is a known fabricator who was behind another right-wing neo-con think tank (Policy Exchange) report against British Muslims called "The Hijacking of British Islam", which claimed that 60% of Britsih mosques were selling terrorist books, but after a BBC NEWSNIGHT investigation it was found that MacEoin & The Policy Exchange "think" tank has FABRICATED RECIEPTS for the books, that didn't exist or were not sold at the mosques. The reciepts were proven to be false and they were sued by the mosques for it. see:
independent.co.uk/ne
ws/uk/politics/torie
s-favourite-thinktan
k-sued-by-muslim-gro
up-897548.html
4- Civitas is also a right-wing think tank which in the past has taken very controversial neo-con positions. Think tanks are not legally obliged to be accurate or tell the truth or be balanced. E.G all the neo-con "stink tanks" behind GW Bush who told him to invade Iraq with "independent" reports of WMD.
5- Even Civitas with it's right-wing bias, has rejected the report's so called statistics as flawed, and will not publish them.
THE LESSON: Don't believe everything you read from the Telegraph, Mail, Sun or Star, and check everything properly. See:
islamophobia-watch.c
om by Martin Sullivan.
I fail to see what relevance that article from the TELEGRAPH has to the fact that an innocent Imam and mosque have been attacked unless you're trying to somehow justify violence, which is what terrorists do: justify violence against normal people.
I wouldn't take that article seriously either, because:
1 - It is from the TELEGRAPH which I have already shown to print many false articles abut Muslims, see above.
2 - It is not even a news article, it is from The Telegraph blog, a blog written by Damian Thompson, which is not subject to any regulations related to accuracy, unlike news articles, so probably a load of BS. Damian Thomson is editor of the CATHOLIC HERALD so he is not exactly balanced, he will obviously be biased. Have a look at his list of articles:
blogs.telegraph.co.u
k/damian_thompson
3- Damian got the DRAFT report from Denis MacEoin who authored the report. MacEoin is a known fabricator who was behind another right-wing neo-con think tank (Policy Exchange) report against British Muslims called "The Hijacking of British Islam", which claimed that 60% of Britsih mosques were selling terrorist books, but after a BBC NEWSNIGHT investigation it was found that MacEoin & The Policy Exchange "think" tank has FABRICATED RECIEPTS for the books, that didn't exist or were not sold at the mosques. The reciepts were proven to be false and they were sued by the mosques for it. see:
independent.co.uk/ne
ws/uk/politics/torie
s-favourite-thinktan
k-sued-by-muslim-gro
up-897548.html
4- Civitas is also a right-wing think tank which in the past has taken very controversial neo-con positions. Think tanks are not legally obliged to be accurate or tell the truth or be balanced. E.G all the neo-con "stink tanks" behind GW Bush who told him to invade Iraq with "independent" reports of WMD.
5- Even Civitas with it's right-wing bias, has rejected the report's so called statistics as flawed, and will not publish them.
THE LESSON: Don't believe everything you read from the Telegraph, Mail, Sun or Star, and check everything properly. See:
islamophobia-watch.c
om by Martin Sullivan.
shiva
says...
2:23pm Fri 19 Dec 08
Winston S. Churchill: departmental minute (Churchill papers: 16/16) 12 May 1919 War Office
I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of lachrymatory gas.
I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected.
It seems Churchill wanted to cause "disablement", "discomfort or illness, but not death".
He contemplated using poison gas, but never did.
Unlike Saddam who did gas the Kurds 70 years later in the al-Anfal Campaign
Al-Anfal is the eighth sura or chapter of the Qur'an which explains the triumph of 319 bandits of the new Muslim faith over his fellow tribesmen at the battle of Badr in 642 AD. Al Anfal literally means the spoils (of war) and was perhaps quite fitting for a military campaign of extermination and looting commanded by Ali Hassan al-Majid. His orders informed jash (literally "donkey's foal" in Kurdish) units that taking cattle, sheep, goats, money, weapons and even women was legal
It is this chapter that contains many of the verses you claim do not exist in one of you above comments
Now who giving porkies
I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of lachrymatory gas.
I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected.
It seems Churchill wanted to cause "disablement", "discomfort or illness, but not death".
He contemplated using poison gas, but never did.
Unlike Saddam who did gas the Kurds 70 years later in the al-Anfal Campaign
Al-Anfal is the eighth sura or chapter of the Qur'an which explains the triumph of 319 bandits of the new Muslim faith over his fellow tribesmen at the battle of Badr in 642 AD. Al Anfal literally means the spoils (of war) and was perhaps quite fitting for a military campaign of extermination and looting commanded by Ali Hassan al-Majid. His orders informed jash (literally "donkey's foal" in Kurdish) units that taking cattle, sheep, goats, money, weapons and even women was legal
It is this chapter that contains many of the verses you claim do not exist in one of you above comments
Now who giving porkies
Snouter
says...
2:48pm Fri 19 Dec 08
Shiva and Dr K,
Why don't the pair of you just wrap up?
Typical of the aurgumentative idiots who originate in the middle east. No wonder you've been at each others throat for thousands and thousands of years.
And thanks a bundle for bring your bigoted views and high opinions to peaceful England's green and pleasant land (not)
Why don't the pair of you just wrap up?
Typical of the aurgumentative idiots who originate in the middle east. No wonder you've been at each others throat for thousands and thousands of years.
And thanks a bundle for bring your bigoted views and high opinions to peaceful England's green and pleasant land (not)
Dr_K
says...
3:37pm Fri 19 Dec 08
Snouter, Vange;
I'm not from the middle east nor do I originate from there, and even if I did it's a bit rich to paint them all with the same brush. Remember who gave us the "World wars" - the most destructive wars in human history - they didn't originate in the ME or Asia. Anyway I'm a born and bred essex boy: I'm from Saarfend!
And I won't continue wasting my breath on Shiva Malang who wants us all to fear & hate Islam by his twisted fanatical hindunazi like propoganda about them.
We must remember that Islam and Christianity came from the middle east- so it's not like England is "pure" from it's influence. Maybe we should become druids if we really want to be pure British LOL.
Anyway I humbly take your point on board and give up on his BS. People like shiva will eventually get to inner peace without feeling the need to demonise whole communities, and I hope the teenagers who attacked the mosque get caught. Remember this is about an innocent bucnh of people that got attacked not anything else.
PEACE TO YOU ALL (including Shiva)
I'm not from the middle east nor do I originate from there, and even if I did it's a bit rich to paint them all with the same brush. Remember who gave us the "World wars" - the most destructive wars in human history - they didn't originate in the ME or Asia. Anyway I'm a born and bred essex boy: I'm from Saarfend!
And I won't continue wasting my breath on Shiva Malang who wants us all to fear & hate Islam by his twisted fanatical hindunazi like propoganda about them.
We must remember that Islam and Christianity came from the middle east- so it's not like England is "pure" from it's influence. Maybe we should become druids if we really want to be pure British LOL.
Anyway I humbly take your point on board and give up on his BS. People like shiva will eventually get to inner peace without feeling the need to demonise whole communities, and I hope the teenagers who attacked the mosque get caught. Remember this is about an innocent bucnh of people that got attacked not anything else.
PEACE TO YOU ALL (including Shiva)
shiva
says...
4:29pm Fri 19 Dec 08
Grant there where been many issues in the medieval but most have been resolved, thankfully.
Yet what we see on the former Indian continent is a continuation of the war which the muslim invaders started all those many years ago. This conflict has its roots in medieval times, and is still not resolved, if it was then there wouldn't be the Pakistan Indian conflict, there would not have been the recent Mumbai Bombing.
Any this dicuscussionis leading no-where
You accuse me of spreading hate.
So be it.
Before I finish, here are a few points for every body to think about
Why are there so many doctors sitting in jails world wide, convicted of islamic terrorism.
How is it that Al Qaeda, second in command has master's degree in surgery
In fact Zawahiri was not even the only surgeon-jihadist in that hospital. Its director, Dr. Sayyid Imam (also known as Dr. Fadl), founded the Peshawar wing of the terrorist group Egyptian Islamic Jihad and was a key mentor to Zawahiri and other future al Qaeda leaders.
Six out of the eight suspects arrested in relation to the most recent U.K plot were doctors
How is it doctor,who have a brilliant education, misunderstand the peaceful koranic scriptures so badly that they break The Hippocratic oath, the most sacred thing for doctor, and go on an orgy of mass murder
Yet what we see on the former Indian continent is a continuation of the war which the muslim invaders started all those many years ago. This conflict has its roots in medieval times, and is still not resolved, if it was then there wouldn't be the Pakistan Indian conflict, there would not have been the recent Mumbai Bombing.
Any this dicuscussionis leading no-where
You accuse me of spreading hate.
So be it.
Before I finish, here are a few points for every body to think about
Why are there so many doctors sitting in jails world wide, convicted of islamic terrorism.
How is it that Al Qaeda, second in command has master's degree in surgery
In fact Zawahiri was not even the only surgeon-jihadist in that hospital. Its director, Dr. Sayyid Imam (also known as Dr. Fadl), founded the Peshawar wing of the terrorist group Egyptian Islamic Jihad and was a key mentor to Zawahiri and other future al Qaeda leaders.
Six out of the eight suspects arrested in relation to the most recent U.K plot were doctors
How is it doctor,who have a brilliant education, misunderstand the peaceful koranic scriptures so badly that they break The Hippocratic oath, the most sacred thing for doctor, and go on an orgy of mass murder
ShipShape
says...
4:59pm Fri 19 Dec 08
All this religious lunacy makes me glad to be a Jedi.
Snouter
says...
6:40pm Fri 19 Dec 08
Shiva and Dr K
“Anyway I humbly take your point on board and give up”
“Any this dicuscussionis leading no-where. So be it.”
Thank you both. It just goes to show that there is some common ground to be found. The only way forward in any conflict is through peaceful mediation
May your God and peace be with you and all men
“Anyway I humbly take your point on board and give up”
“Any this dicuscussionis leading no-where. So be it.”
Thank you both. It just goes to show that there is some common ground to be found. The only way forward in any conflict is through peaceful mediation
May your God and peace be with you and all men
shiva
says...
4:06pm Sun 21 Dec 08
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
The Saudi goverment does not
lie
http://quran.al-isla
m.com/Targama/DispTa
rgam.asp?nType=1&nSe
g=0&l=eng&nSora=5&nA
ya=51&t=eng
The Saudi goverment does not
lie
http://quran.al-isla
m.com/Targama/DispTa
rgam.asp?nType=1&nSe
g=0&l=eng&nSora=5&nA
ya=51&t=eng
Muslim
says...
2:02pm Tue 23 Dec 08
If any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. (Quran 5:32)
God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just. (Quran 60:8)
IslamReligion dot com
Peace
God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just. (Quran 60:8)
IslamReligion dot com
Peace
applebob
says...
10:31pm Tue 23 Dec 08
shiva wrote:Thought you were packing in?
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. The Saudi goverment does not lie http://quran.al-isla m.com/Targama/DispTa rgam.asp?nType=1&
;nSe g=0&l=eng&nS
ora=5&nA ya=51&t=eng
"The Saudi government does not lie"?? Are you kidding? Shiva's suddenly decided to put all faith in a middle-eastern (muslim) government... :/
Anyway, there has been so much added since I last logged in that I couldn't possibly respond to all I would have liked. I do have a life, and exams to revise for.
It will have to suffice to say that I think shiva's exposed hate-mongering and lies, and evident islamophobic obsession, will show for itself to all who care to see.
I will finish with the point that though some may be sick of this constant debate ("stop shoving your opinions down our throats") but freedom of expression is actually a right that I'm sure most of those same people would stand for. The fact is that if either side's story is true - that the world is in danger of radical muslims, or that it isn't and that claim is made up/exaggerated spin against muslims - it needs to be debated, because either way innocent people like ourselves are being victimised.
Please do not just believe what you read without backing it up with reliable evidence, and think about people's motives for spreading/creating conspiracies. When I say think, I mean rationally and without bias that you may not even have realised you had. People need to analyse their own thought processes as well as others'.
applebob
says...
10:37pm Tue 23 Dec 08
ShipShape wrote:Lol, loving the irony
All this religious lunacy makes me glad to be a Jedi.
May the force be with you all... Or God.. Or peace.. Or any other non-specific deity...
alnav
says...
4:16am Wed 14 Jan 09
The situation in Gaza is clearly likened to the Nazis Holocaust during the second world war, only in this case the Israelis are the Nazis, and the Palestinians are the ones trapped in the concentration camp. WHEN WILL THE WORLD LEARN THAT THE MASSACRE OF INNOCENT CHILDREN ONLY FEEDS MORE VIOLENCE.
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