Grammars ‘neglect’ the poorest children (From Echo)

Here we go again with the Grammar bashing. I suggest Bates concentrates on getting his crappy house in order and leaves the other schools alone.

It is only natural for parents to wish for their children to go to a school where they mix with people much like themselves.

I do feel for the intelligent kids at Futures being held back by their oxygen wasting parents and the feral hoard of no-marks that infest that school.

We need MORE levels of schooling in my opinion; grammar, comprehensive and workhouse.

School children should be like football teams, promotion and relegation at the end of each year.

I'm with Baker on this. I'm not from a particularly wealthy background but I went to Westcliff and got 4 As at A level. It's right that primary schools should do more to identify and encourage kids with ability, whatever their background. Shame the Tories in the government aren't going to do the only thing Tories used to be good for and bring back grammars nationwide!

Is John Geoghegan or the Echo putting their own slant on Mr. Bates words?

More children from better off families attend grammar schools - as they're more likely to take the 11+ and to do well in it.

The criteria for entry to a grammar school is based on the 11+ result attained. The exam contains no questions about background, wealth or class - the grammar schools are unable to distinguish between (or neglect kids) based upon these.

Maybe the poorer parents need educating and/or the primary school system needs reforming to enable/encourage the brightest children to take and do well in the 11+.

This could prove to be a double-edged sword for Mr. Bates though - he'll get a higher percentage of wealthier pupils and save on free school dinners but on average they'll be less able - so hitting government targets will become harder.

this is absolute nonsense.

It is not the poverty that leads to the lack of education. It is the culture that many from less affluent backgrounds involve themselves in and prospects and futures colleges are a petri dish that helps multiply the number of those with few qualifications.

Prospects is by far the worst college in Southend by which my car was once parked there and its window smashed by those attending and i have been on a bus threatened by one of the students with a knife before, not to mention having had brick thrown at me.

I was brought up in a poor background, but because I wanted to learn, and dedicated myself to study and better myself, I passed the 11+ and was grammar school educated until leaving for university this year.

I feel that Mr Bates is misinformed and has not done his research. It is more the fact that the failure of the UK education system to provide vocational skills to those not academically minded during secondary school that is the problem.

Those not interested in academic learning become those who get bored and cause trouble in school and as a consequence are shunted to prospects.

If a proper educational system was introduced so that those more practically skilled children can gain practical qualifications with the goal in future, after school to gain an apprenticeship in what they want to do, not what the Government wants to do.

@garycooperat34, Benfleet:
I take it that English language was not a requirement of your university admission.

Agree with you here. The less fortunate as they call it is just another excuse for those parents to hold heir hands out - gimme, gimme, gimme.

Kid in a rubbish school that is failing with useless teachers that shouldnt even be in the profession hasnt a hope in hell of passing the 11 plus or any other exam come to that. Of course the rich kids in a fee paying school gonna pass it with fly colours and get in the grammer. We only have to look at the two men running our country to see having a rich daddy gets you the best jobs/pay as both Cameron & Clegg went to the highest fee paying schools in the land. What possible encouragement does that give to the poor all it says in loud words is DONT BOTHER ACHIEVING ANYTHING UNLESS YOUR PARENTS ARE LOADED CAUSE IF THEY ARENT YOU GET NOWHERE IN THIS CLASSED RIDDEN COUNTRY.

Southendman wrote:
Kid in a rubbish school that is failing with useless teachers that shouldnt even be in the profession hasnt a hope in hell of passing the 11 plus or any other exam come to that. Of course the rich kids in a fee paying school gonna pass it with fly colours and get in the grammer. We only have to look at the two men running our country to see having a rich daddy gets you the best jobs/pay as both Cameron & Clegg went to the highest fee paying schools in the land. What possible encouragement does that give to the poor all it says in loud words is DONT BOTHER ACHIEVING ANYTHING UNLESS YOUR PARENTS ARE LOADED CAUSE IF THEY ARENT YOU GET NOWHERE IN THIS CLASSED RIDDEN COUNTRY.

Such bull. Do you think it is fair for a chav benefit scrounger to have the same rights and opportunities as someone who works their butt off?

YOu are obviously one of the less fortunate ones who have nothing but hatred for those who work hard to succeed and give their kids the best.

Better yourself man and give your kids what you can, rather than cursing those that do.

Class ridden my butt. People like you use the word unfortuante to hold your hand out and expent everything given to you. You don't like anyone who has succeeded or will succeed in life, your posts in many forums says this. Quit whinging and complaining, and blaming others, including foreigners for you short comings as a person and provider. Address your issues, you'll be a better man for it.

Southendman wrote:
Kid in a rubbish school that is failing with useless teachers that shouldnt even be in the profession hasnt a hope in hell of passing the 11 plus or any other exam come to that. Of course the rich kids in a fee paying school gonna pass it with fly colours and get in the grammer. We only have to look at the two men running our country to see having a rich daddy gets you the best jobs/pay as both Cameron & Clegg went to the highest fee paying schools in the land. What possible encouragement does that give to the poor all it says in loud words is DONT BOTHER ACHIEVING ANYTHING UNLESS YOUR PARENTS ARE LOADED CAUSE IF THEY ARENT YOU GET NOWHERE IN THIS CLASSED RIDDEN COUNTRY.

What a load of unmitigated, whining crap. Typical of those with a victim complex who feel they're owed something. You want a good education? Get off your fat backside and prove it.

One of my sons attends grammar school, and guess what? He didn't attend a fee paying primary school. He just has parents who give a toss.

This is the politics of envy. A recent survey of primary school age children found that 50% of how well a child does at school is down to how much they are helped at home. The lower echolons of society tend to bleat that their kids aren't doing so well therefore it must be the schools fault but the equation is simple - people born with more brains (yes, shock horror, some people do have better brains than others) tend to do better in life, tend to have children with better brains and tend to help more with their childrens education. So the chavs who bleat that the system is not fair are wrong, wrong, wrong. There is nothing wrong with Southends Grammar school system, just a shame that more of the surrounding boroughs don't build more Grammar Schools.

garycooperat34 wrote:
this is absolute nonsense.

It is not the poverty that leads to the lack of education. It is the culture that many from less affluent backgrounds involve themselves in and prospects and futures colleges are a petri dish that helps multiply the number of those with few qualifications.

Prospects is by far the worst college in Southend by which my car was once parked there and its window smashed by those attending and i have been on a bus threatened by one of the students with a knife before, not to mention having had brick thrown at me.

I was brought up in a poor background, but because I wanted to learn, and dedicated myself to study and better myself, I passed the 11+ and was grammar school educated until leaving for university this year.

I feel that Mr Bates is misinformed and has not done his research. It is more the fact that the failure of the UK education system to provide vocational skills to those not academically minded during secondary school that is the problem.

Those not interested in academic learning become those who get bored and cause trouble in school and as a consequence are shunted to prospects.

If a proper educational system was introduced so that those more practically skilled children can gain practical qualifications with the goal in future, after school to gain an apprenticeship in what they want to do, not what the Government wants to do.

Well, you're someone who's been arrested on suspicion of fraud, and has a number of CCJ's against him / his company...

garycooperat34 wrote:
this is absolute nonsense.

It is not the poverty that leads to the lack of education. It is the culture that many from less affluent backgrounds involve themselves in and prospects and futures colleges are a petri dish that helps multiply the number of those with few qualifications.

Prospects is by far the worst college in Southend by which my car was once parked there and its window smashed by those attending and i have been on a bus threatened by one of the students with a knife before, not to mention having had brick thrown at me.

I was brought up in a poor background, but because I wanted to learn, and dedicated myself to study and better myself, I passed the 11+ and was grammar school educated until leaving for university this year.

I feel that Mr Bates is misinformed and has not done his research. It is more the fact that the failure of the UK education system to provide vocational skills to those not academically minded during secondary school that is the problem.

Those not interested in academic learning become those who get bored and cause trouble in school and as a consequence are shunted to prospects.

If a proper educational system was introduced so that those more practically skilled children can gain practical qualifications with the goal in future, after school to gain an apprenticeship in what they want to do, not what the Government wants to do.

Did anyone ever sponsor Gary's speedboat?

garycooperat34 wrote:
this is absolute nonsense. It is not the poverty that leads to the lack of education. It is the culture that many from less affluent backgrounds involve themselves in and prospects and futures colleges are a petri dish that helps multiply the number of those with few qualifications. Prospects is by far the worst college in Southend by which my car was once parked there and its window smashed by those attending and i have been on a bus threatened by one of the students with a knife before, not to mention having had brick thrown at me. I was brought up in a poor background, but because I wanted to learn, and dedicated myself to study and better myself, I passed the 11+ and was grammar school educated until leaving for university this year. I feel that Mr Bates is misinformed and has not done his research. It is more the fact that the failure of the UK education system to provide vocational skills to those not academically minded during secondary school that is the problem. Those not interested in academic learning become those who get bored and cause trouble in school and as a consequence are shunted to prospects. If a proper educational system was introduced so that those more practically skilled children can gain practical qualifications with the goal in future, after school to gain an apprenticeship in what they want to do, not what the Government wants to do.

ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON GARY.
Sadly though, not everyone who reads it will have the brains to recognise the truth when they see it. I don't know what 152Rochford is bleating about but it has nothing to do with what you have written here, which is one of the most perceptive comments I have seen on here for a long time. Don't worry about 152Rochford, he probably has a son or grandson at Prospects or maybe he "teaches" there.

I am talking about the business that Gray used to run - do you remember when he sponsored Southend United and was in the Sun newspaper claiming he was earning £30000 a month or something like that and had employees? Meanwhile he was sitting at his computer bidding for the phones people had ordered from him as 'new' and unlocked, and charging them £1.50 every time they complained?

If you want to go to a grammar school and have the neccessary intelectual requirements you might succeed but find you are the only one who lives on a council estate. You will not be able to afford music tuition, trips etc etc. The shame will taint the benefit of being at a better school and you will leave with a chip on your shoulder. If you want a place at Oxford or Cambridge you will need good A Level passes unless you have a mother who wears a crown, a father who owns a lot of oil or you are Hugh Laurie. Fairness is just another word in the dictionary that comes between fag and ****.

Discouraged wrote:
If you want to go to a grammar school and have the neccessary intelectual requirements you might succeed but find you are the only one who lives on a council estate. You will not be able to afford music tuition, trips etc etc. The shame will taint the benefit of being at a better school and you will leave with a chip on your shoulder. If you want a place at Oxford or Cambridge you will need good A Level passes unless you have a mother who wears a crown, a father who owns a lot of oil or you are Hugh Laurie. Fairness is just another word in the dictionary that comes between fag and ****.

Discouraged, you obviously have a huge log firmly implanted on your shoulder, probably the consequence of all those years as a special needs pupil, as your opinion is based on pure fantasy. Students at an average Grammar School come in all shapes and sizes and from all sorts of backgrounds, just like the students at any other school. OK, the mix might be a bit biased, maybe a few more rich kids because smart parents make more money, but there have always been a fair mix of kids from all backgrounds. The only thing that unites them is that they are all a bit smarter than your average bear. What you are saying is just pure nonsense, get over it.

152, I don't read the Sun and neither should you. And I've never heard of Gary before, but if he has done wrong, well he's obviously young and who didn't do something wrong when we were young? If this is the same Gary, at least he has had the integrity to use his own name. Still don't see any relevance to the college issue. The lad speaks the truth.

152, I notice you don't deny that you have a son or grandson at Prospects, or that you might be a "teacher" there. that would explain your huge bias.
Gary is right that the "less academic" should be channeled into more practical courses far earlier, and that should include more "good parenting" tuition so maybe their children will be less of a problem.

At the end of the day everyone has the same opportunity - in some cases that manifests itself by people who can afford it having a private education, in others they work their back sides off to pass the 11+ and go to grammar school. The majority of the feckless f*ckwits are disruptive at school - coz it's not cool man - and then want to blame everyone apart from themselves when they end up jobless or at McDonalds! Unfortunately we live in a society where past generations of idiots have been allowed to breed and their offspring are now breeding out of control with other like minded idiots so we now have a conglomeration of total f*ckwits that only know how to manipulate the DSS for benefits and are not capable of any sort of employment.

Grammer schools belong in the last century pre war. Its time to have equal treatment to all children in this town then maybe we wouldnt have a guy stabbed to death over picnic chairs outside our local park. Carry on as we are in this all out class war where the rich spit venim at the poor and the poor use a knive or their fists to beat the living daylights out the rich and no one will have a land fit for human habitation.

Southendman wrote:
Grammer schools belong in the last century pre war. Its time to have equal treatment to all children in this town then maybe we wouldnt have a guy stabbed to death over picnic chairs outside our local park. Carry on as we are in this all out class war where the rich spit venim at the poor and the poor use a knive or their fists to beat the living daylights out the rich and no one will have a land fit for human habitation.

You are such a muppet. Equality for all kids eh? Well lets see, I pay high taxes to support kids whose parents don't or ever will work.....whose parents don't give a toss about their kids education. Half the kids of these rodent scrounging families get out of school not being able to read or write, or even think properly.

Get over yourself man - blaming others for your problems in life doesn't cut it.

if you want equality for everyone, then everyone needs to pull their weight - which means getting people like you off the dole and working!!! Lazy git.

Southendman wrote:
Grammer schools belong in the last century pre war. Its time to have equal treatment to all children in this town then maybe we wouldnt have a guy stabbed to death over picnic chairs outside our local park. Carry on as we are in this all out class war where the rich spit venim at the poor and the poor use a knive or their fists to beat the living daylights out the rich and no one will have a land fit for human habitation.

Oooh you're good. Hilarious in fact.

Aint it just the truth wrote:
152, I notice you don't deny that you have a son or grandson at Prospects, or that you might be a "teacher" there. that would explain your huge bias.
Gary is right that the "less academic" should be channeled into more practical courses far earlier, and that should include more "good parenting" tuition so maybe their children will be less of a problem.

Ain't it just the truth, I don't buy The Sun either. Or the Mirror (who were the ones who conducted a proper journalistic investigation into his 'business'). I just read their websites, like I read this one.
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If you search for Gary Cooper in the above search box, you will find the following stories:
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Schoolboy, 16 is mobile phone tycoon
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Business of Whizz-kid, 16 under scrutiny
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Whizzkid denies firm has done anything wrong
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Even funnier were his posts at the moneysavingexperts forum which he has now had the intelligence to delete. I think in the best one he stated that he would not 'compromise his morals' by engaging with those complaining.
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I cannot find a story in the Echo about when he was arrested but he was, you can see the Echo website.
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If this is the sort of trash that goes to Grammar school, I am glad I did not get it.
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For the record, I have no connection to Prospects College whatsoever. I went to a local comprehensive, then a local sixth form college, graduated with 4 A's getting 100% in several exams and went on to red brick uni.

Of course, the above should read 'I am glad I did not get in' and 'a red-brick uni'.

Grammar schools are not for all, regardless of background. Everyone's different and many have different educational needs.

I fail to see why those with a chip on their shoulder choose to blame grammar schools for other schools', or their own, failings. Leave them alone!

As an aside, this borough's grammars get a hell of a lot less funding per pupil than the various academies / comprehensives, so don't play the money card either.

I fail to see why those with a chip on their shoulder choose to blame grammar schools for other schools', or their own, failings. Leave them alone!

Horace because it is the easy way out for those with failings to blame everyone, except themselves.

gitreal wrote:
I fail to see why those with a chip on their shoulder choose to blame grammar schools for other schools', or their own, failings. Leave them alone! Horace because it is the easy way out for those with failings to blame everyone, except themselves.

TOO TRUE

My son goes to a local grammar school he went to a normal junior school and chose to take his 11+.
He passed the exam there was no mention of how much money we had they asked no questions at all.
A friend of mine put his daughter into private school so that she would stand more chance of getting into the grammar school but unfortunately she did not pass her 11+ exam so it goes to show that money does not count it is the childs ability that does.

Scoolboy humour
I wondered why Neil was an executive and not a head.
Must be because he would be Head Master Bates

Scoolboy humour
I wondered why Neil was an executive and not a head.
Must be because he would be Head Master Bates

gitreal wrote:

Southendman wrote: Grammer schools belong in the last century pre war. Its time to have equal treatment to all children in this town then maybe we wouldnt have a guy stabbed to death over picnic chairs outside our local park. Carry on as we are in this all out class war where the rich spit venim at the poor and the poor use a knive or their fists to beat the living daylights out the rich and no one will have a land fit for human habitation.

You are such a muppet. Equality for all kids eh? Well lets see, I pay high taxes to support kids whose parents don't or ever will work.....whose parents don't give a toss about their kids education. Half the kids of these rodent scrounging families get out of school not being able to read or write, or even think properly. Get over yourself man - blaming others for your problems in life doesn't cut it. if you want equality for everyone, then everyone needs to pull their weight - which means getting people like you off the dole and working!!! Lazy git.

So this is the intellectual thoughts born of a grammer school education is it? Basically the parents were failures and so should the offspring be - no chance to have a quality education that put them in employment and so give their own kids more opportunity basically your a typical selfish little middle class creep that wants the social status quo so your wealthly family / friends and little clique can keep all the opportunties for yourselfs while still bleating about the poor and how lazy and workshy they are. YOUR VILE. By the way I can read and write despite going to a crap school though reading your garbage makes me wish I hadnt bothered!

I have a son at a grammar school and a daughter at a local comprehensive which is unfortunately in special measures! I know where I wish my daughter were as she is not in an environment where she will achieve her potential. The difference between the two schools is phenomenal, and that is only my experience as a parent. By the way I'm a working class, grew up on a council estate, single (and working) parent.

Southendman wrote:

gitreal wrote:

Southendman wrote: Grammer schools belong in the last century pre war. Its time to have equal treatment to all children in this town then maybe we wouldnt have a guy stabbed to death over picnic chairs outside our local park. Carry on as we are in this all out class war where the rich spit venim at the poor and the poor use a knive or their fists to beat the living daylights out the rich and no one will have a land fit for human habitation.

You are such a muppet. Equality for all kids eh? Well lets see, I pay high taxes to support kids whose parents don't or ever will work.....whose parents don't give a toss about their kids education. Half the kids of these rodent scrounging families get out of school not being able to read or write, or even think properly. Get over yourself man - blaming others for your problems in life doesn't cut it. if you want equality for everyone, then everyone needs to pull their weight - which means getting people like you off the dole and working!!! Lazy git.

So this is the intellectual thoughts born of a grammer school education is it? Basically the parents were failures and so should the offspring be - no chance to have a quality education that put them in employment and so give their own kids more opportunity basically your a typical selfish little middle class creep that wants the social status quo so your wealthly family / friends and little clique can keep all the opportunties for yourselfs while still bleating about the poor and how lazy and workshy they are. YOUR VILE. By the way I can read and write despite going to a crap school though reading your garbage makes me wish I hadnt bothered!

The point is not that rich and poor should be separated, you've missed that point completely.
I went to a private school and then a grammar school, but I know plenty of people who didn't and went to private school because they were motivated to learn.
However, if a child's parents aren't prepared to work and take no interest in their child's education then the child has little chance of succeeding.
The point of a grammar school is to find the people who are willing to put effort in and have a decent level of intelligence and allow them to flourish. Class has nothing to do with it, bar the fact that maybe more upper class/middle class parents take an interest in their child's education. And please note that I said 'more' and not 'all'.

Southendman, the only thing that's "vile" is a chief executive having a pop at grammar schools and blaming his school's failings on them.

Your attitude, that everyone is "owed something", not to mention the pathetic "class war" angle… well. Not so much "vile" as "risible".

Your poor spelling and persistence in ignoring the points being made indicate a flaw in your assertion that you can read and write too.

Well said Mr Wimpole sir. Students at an average Grammar School come in all shapes and sizes and from all sorts of backgrounds, just like the students at any other school. OK, the mix might be a bit biased, maybe a few more rich kids because smart parents make more money, but there have always been a fair mix of kids from all backgrounds. The only thing that unites them is that they are all a bit smarter than your average bear. The chavs on here bleating about the system being unfair only have themselves to blame. If they had worked a bit harder at primary level education they could also have gone to grammar School (of course they will all say they wouldn't want to, which is called cutting off your ears to spite your face).

If grammar schools are so much better, just make every school a grammar school.

Horace Wimpole wrote:
Southendman, the only thing that's "vile" is a chief executive having a pop at grammar schools and blaming his school's failings on them. Your attitude, that everyone is "owed something", not to mention the pathetic "class war" angle… well. Not so much "vile" as "risible". Your poor spelling and persistence in ignoring the points being made indicate a flaw in your assertion that you can read and write too.

Well said Mr Wimpole. Southend man has been bleating on all the time about this and that and wait until some foreigner takes a job and gets recognition - oh lordy. As he is an unemployed git, he blames everyone and anything rather than himself. Smacks of scrounging and gimme gimme gimme. People need to take responsibility for their own actions, life and kids. Until they do, we are screwed as a nation.

Nebs wrote:
If grammar schools are so much better, just make every school a grammar school.

Nebs, I think the point here is that grammar schools are not necessarily 'better' but they select kids of high ability so they can teach at a consistently high level rather than have to accomodate a broad range of ability.

Most kids at grammar schools are highly capable and motivated. Unfortunately that can't be said of the majority of kids at some other schools.

I'm glad my daughter was educated in a grammar school and is heading off to a good university. I'm also very pleased to say that in spite of my background of council housing and free school meals I never dropped my expectations for my kids. They are going in the right direction as a result of their hard work, not because they had rich parents.

Just because Neil Bates' college is failing and not getting the results he should ........He starts bashing the grammar schools.
Opportunities start at home, with encouragement from parents.
I am a grammar school student from a working class family of four boys ..... we all had the opportunity to take the 11+ .. and I passed the test and went to a grammar school.
My wife comes from a working class family of four, and her sister also passed the 11+ and went to grammar school.
BOTH families encouraged their children to go for it, and two succeeded.
My daughter decided herself to take the 11+ and passed the exam ... She now attends a grammar school, and has just completed 11 GCSE exams.
Junior schools need to raise the aspirations of students and parents by encouraging ALL students to take the 11+ exam and not say" You are not good enough, don't bother".
Grammar schools take students on ABILITY TO LEARN ...... money does not come into the equation.
Yes, it can be a struggle to find money for trips etc., but the grammer schools have funds available so dis-advantaged students do not miss out, and the local authority can help with the cost of uniforms.

A final comment for Neil Bates ....... on his prosed application for Academy status ........ Changing the name on the front of the building to say "Academy" will not make it better ..... A change of attitude from the leadership and staff is what is required to get better results. I should know ...... i work in one.

Well said Eastwood Boy but also see the comments left by GaryCooperat34 above.
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It's time Baker got off his high horse and stopped trying to blame Grammar Schools for the failings of the system and his own college.

Having also read comments made by GaryCooperat34, I agree that some students are shunted off to "vocational colleges". But, at the academy where I work, we have vocational courses running alongside the mainstream academic subjects, so students are still within the school, and feel as though they "belong". They do courses more suited to their career aspirations, as well as maintaining their basic education in the "3 R's".