2p or not 2p? The car park question (From Echo)

£4.70 a day to park and over £200 a month for a return to London for work all after paying income tax and national insurance.

Sympathy levels are non-existent

Richy, I think you will find that a yearly season ticket (without tube) to Fenchurch Street from Benfleet is £2,912 per annum. This equates to £242 per month, not over £200 a month. Castle Point have done very nicely over the years by removing the season ticket spaces for residents of the Borough and making them available to people from outside the Borough. Why can't the parking meters be updated to take debit/credit cards????

I don't not understand your comment about "sympathy levels are non-existent" to be honest.

Meant that sympathy levels for the owners of those machines is non-existent.

My sympathy levels are non existent for those that choose to work in London, then moan about parking and rail costs.

Why has everybody got it in for the 2p.
Its the poxy 5p that really gets up my chuff.
No one wants them and no machines accept them AND they're SO small...WHY?????????
??????????

Get rid of all cash, make everything electronic.

Technically it's not free parking it is costing them 2p..

j-w wrote:
My sympathy levels are non existent for those that choose to work in London, then moan about parking and rail costs.

Because pay levels locally are an absolute joke !. We are talking £15-£20k for highly skilled jobs.

People are fully entitled to complain about charges that are not justified and are a complete rip off.

How can using a coin of the Realm be classed as a criminal offence?

I think someone's trying it on.

Nebs wrote:
Get rid of all cash, make everything electronic.

You always state this!

Have you ever considered the consequence of such an action?

Give a few examples of how getting rid of money would benefit the ordinary man/woman

Nebs wrote:
Get rid of all cash, make everything electronic.

"it is a criminal offence to use 2p coins in the machines and legal action will be taken against “offenders”


What law exactly would be broken by using 2ps?

ducky18 wrote:
Richy, I think you will find that a yearly season ticket (without tube) to Fenchurch Street from Benfleet is £2,912 per annum. This equates to £242 per month, not over £200 a month. Castle Point have done very nicely over the years by removing the season ticket spaces for residents of the Borough and making them available to people from outside the Borough. Why can't the parking meters be updated to take debit/credit cards????

I don't not understand your comment about "sympathy levels are non-existent" to be honest.

Ducky, I think you'll find £242 per month IS 'over £200 a month' as stated by Richy don't shine shoes no more

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:
Get rid of all cash, make everything electronic.

"it is a criminal offence to use 2p coins in the machines and legal action will be taken against “offenders”


What law exactly would be broken by using 2ps?

Without reasonable doubt has to be proved that the person intentionally put the coin in. If a driver got caught once and warned then the 2nd time they would be charged with theft, no fraud as someone got done for this in Becton E16 back in March.

using a 2p coin can never be a criminal offence.

I would suggest that such signs are illegal.

It is however not legal tender is 20p, however it is not a criminal offence.

I think that using an item to cause criminal damage (2ps in this case to block up the coin mechanism) is an offence. It could be worded better in the article and the council note.

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:
Get rid of all cash, make everything electronic.

You always state this!

Have you ever considered the consequence of such an action?

Give a few examples of how getting rid of money would benefit the ordinary man/woman

The benefits agency can see who is working while they are claiming. Selling or buying stolen goods or drugs will become much more difficult and traceable. The ordinary man or woman would not have to pay taxes to subsidise those making spurious claims and the money could be directed to those genuinely in need, such as the elderly, the sick, and the travellers. Crime would reduce as if you can't sell something anonymously then there is no point stealing it in the first place, which will make homes and streets safer places.

Nebs: Don't you think the criminals will find ways to avoid detection in a moneyless state? False ID's, payment in goods rather than cash, and a million other ways, don't underestimate the resourcefulness of criminals. As for your comment "the elderly, the sick, and the TRAVELLERS", I think the travellers are the last group of people that would like to see a crackdown on criminality.

So Mr Edwards spends money in a shop buying an item that he doesn't need because the machine won't give 30p change? If he is happy for the council to raise the charge to £5, why doesn't he just stick a fiver in the machine and save the hassle.

Having said that, the machines should be brought up to date to give change or take cards for those who do not want to pay a penny more.

pendulum wrote:
Nebs: Don't you think the criminals will find ways to avoid detection in a moneyless state? False ID's, payment in goods rather than cash, and a million other ways, don't underestimate the resourcefulness of criminals. As for your comment "the elderly, the sick, and the TRAVELLERS", I think the travellers are the last group of people that would like to see a crackdown on criminality.

I fully accept that it won't solve everything. Instead of cash work the gardener who mows the lawn each week or the roadmender who tarmacs your drive, will still get paid but it will be in beer or cigarettes rather than cash, but they won't be able to work all week just for beer and cigarettes. Initially the criminals will barter, but at some point they have to convert the goods to money in the bank, there are only so many 50 inch colour TVs that a drug baron will want to take. False ID's for dodgy benefits claims will still appear, but as there will be less burglars and drug dealers in prison maybe they will be able to lock up the fraudsters. People could buy their drugs in american dollars, or euros, but they will have to get those from the bank so anyone changing up twenty quid into euros every friday night would be flagged up as suspect. It won't solve everything, but it will be a start, and a pain in the backside for those outside the law.

Rich-Carol is a wise lady. I keep looking for her comments. I would urge others to take note of what she says..

Rich-Carol is a wise lady. I keep looking for her comments. I would urge others to take note of what she says..

cant belive i just green arrowed e types ?

Diannah says...
8:30pm Thu 6 Sep 12

So Mr Edwards spends money in a shop buying an item that he doesn't need because the machine won't give 30p change? If he is happy for the council to raise the charge to £5, why doesn't he just stick a fiver in the machine and save the hassle.

Maybe Mr Edwards prefers spending the extra 30p on a bar of chocolate than just giving free-bees to the Borough. Understandable.

GentleGiant wrote:
using a 2p coin can never be a criminal offence.

I would suggest that such signs are illegal.

It is however not legal tender is 20p, however it is not a criminal offence.

Yes, 2ps are legal tender to the sum of 20p.

So someone putting in 20p of 2ps would be committing no offense at all never mind a criminal offense.

Perhaps the Echo have got this all skew-whiff as per.

As a side-line, I too enjoy Rich-Carol's contributuion on this site. She gives a bit of spice & imagination to all our reading, which is def better than reading the Echo's headlines.

I remember feeding in the 2p copper coins into the local telephone box in 1971. Really good value chatting for about 5 minutes !

Nebs wrote:

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:
Get rid of all cash, make everything electronic.

You always state this!

Have you ever considered the consequence of such an action?

Give a few examples of how getting rid of money would benefit the ordinary man/woman

The benefits agency can see who is working while they are claiming. Selling or buying stolen goods or drugs will become much more difficult and traceable. The ordinary man or woman would not have to pay taxes to subsidise those making spurious claims and the money could be directed to those genuinely in need, such as the elderly, the sick, and the travellers. Crime would reduce as if you can't sell something anonymously then there is no point stealing it in the first place, which will make homes and streets safer places.

How could the benefit agency be able to tell if someone is claiming while working just by abolishing money?

How would abolishing money make fencing and drug dealing anymore difficult? (No money might actually make tracing such transactions more difficult)

How does no money make spurious claims harder or more easier to detect?

How does no money stop people buying and selling either openly or anonymously?

Look at the debacle with the Nat west bank when a 'glitch' made it impossible for many people to access their money?

Those who had money in their hands were fine, those who only had cards, which now didn't work, were panic stricken and left penniless. literally! Computer says NO!

If money is abolished what will happen to gold? Will that become worthless too?

pendulum wrote:
Nebs: Don't you think the criminals will find ways to avoid detection in a moneyless state? False ID's, payment in goods rather than cash, and a million other ways, don't underestimate the resourcefulness of criminals. As for your comment "the elderly, the sick, and the TRAVELLERS", I think the travellers are the last group of people that would like to see a crackdown on criminality.

"I think the travellers are the last group of people that would like to see a crackdown on criminality"

Oh really and why do you suppose that? Because the Daily Hate and the Sun Sand and Sex newspapers have fed you that rubbish till you think its your own opinion?

I think the first two words of your post need to be removed as they are obviously a false claim!

Nebs wrote:

pendulum wrote:
Nebs: Don't you think the criminals will find ways to avoid detection in a moneyless state? False ID's, payment in goods rather than cash, and a million other ways, don't underestimate the resourcefulness of criminals. As for your comment "the elderly, the sick, and the TRAVELLERS", I think the travellers are the last group of people that would like to see a crackdown on criminality.

I fully accept that it won't solve everything. Instead of cash work the gardener who mows the lawn each week or the roadmender who tarmacs your drive, will still get paid but it will be in beer or cigarettes rather than cash, but they won't be able to work all week just for beer and cigarettes. Initially the criminals will barter, but at some point they have to convert the goods to money in the bank, there are only so many 50 inch colour TVs that a drug baron will want to take. False ID's for dodgy benefits claims will still appear, but as there will be less burglars and drug dealers in prison maybe they will be able to lock up the fraudsters. People could buy their drugs in american dollars, or euros, but they will have to get those from the bank so anyone changing up twenty quid into euros every friday night would be flagged up as suspect. It won't solve everything, but it will be a start, and a pain in the backside for those outside the law.

So money will still exist but only in the bank not in circulation?

Money being held in the bank will only inconvenience lawbreakers? How so?

If its not in circulation then why is money physically needed at all?

Have you spent anytime thinking about this?

fattybasil wrote:
cant belive i just green arrowed e types ?

A reasoned opinion is often shared by many!

Erghh, I get it that some people are thick and that some are on a wind up but...

If there is a sign that says using 2p's in this machine will break it then the council are well within their rights to report it as criminal damage once it's broken, however I suspect that the 2p is simply blocking the mechanism in which case no permanent damage has been caused and no offence has been committed.

Next it can't be fraud either because legal tender can not be classed as a false instrument!

The only offence left is theft, at a stretch you could make it fit as the person intentionally inserting 2p's is exposing the owner of the machine to the risk of lost earnings! I doubt the CPS would go anywhere near this case though!

Typical council over stretching its power!

Allan Edwards, 41, from Grays is a idiot.

"I usually have to stop at a shop and buy something unnecessary on the way, so I have the right change in order to park."

He goes there all the time he knows it £4.70 why not just take £4.70 in change, or rather than buy something unnecessary on the way in, buy something you need on the way in.

If they did introduce a new machine so you could pay, he would probably forget his phone and have to buy a new one on the way in!

Herbert69 wrote:
Allan Edwards, 41, from Grays is a idiot.

"I usually have to stop at a shop and buy something unnecessary on the way, so I have the right change in order to park."

He goes there all the time he knows it £4.70 why not just take £4.70 in change, or rather than buy something unnecessary on the way in, buy something you need on the way in.

If they did introduce a new machine so you could pay, he would probably forget his phone and have to buy a new one on the way in!

If they did introduce a new machine so you could pay by text, he would probably forget his phone and have to buy a new one on the way in!

I think you may have mentioned that already.

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

pendulum wrote:
Nebs: Don't you think the criminals will find ways to avoid detection in a moneyless state? False ID's, payment in goods rather than cash, and a million other ways, don't underestimate the resourcefulness of criminals. As for your comment "the elderly, the sick, and the TRAVELLERS", I think the travellers are the last group of people that would like to see a crackdown on criminality.

I fully accept that it won't solve everything. Instead of cash work the gardener who mows the lawn each week or the roadmender who tarmacs your drive, will still get paid but it will be in beer or cigarettes rather than cash, but they won't be able to work all week just for beer and cigarettes. Initially the criminals will barter, but at some point they have to convert the goods to money in the bank, there are only so many 50 inch colour TVs that a drug baron will want to take. False ID's for dodgy benefits claims will still appear, but as there will be less burglars and drug dealers in prison maybe they will be able to lock up the fraudsters. People could buy their drugs in american dollars, or euros, but they will have to get those from the bank so anyone changing up twenty quid into euros every friday night would be flagged up as suspect. It won't solve everything, but it will be a start, and a pain in the backside for those outside the law.

So money will still exist but only in the bank not in circulation?

Money being held in the bank will only inconvenience lawbreakers? How so?

If its not in circulation then why is money physically needed at all?

Have you spent anytime thinking about this?

How could the benefit agency be able to tell if someone is claiming while working just by abolishing money? Not abolishing money, just abolishing cash. Money would still be used, but only electronically.

How would abolishing money make fencing and drug dealing anymore difficult? (No money might actually make tracing such transactions more difficult). Because to sell or buy stolen goods or drugs without cash money would mean either the use of electronic transactions (which could be easily traced) or barter in which case the seller then has the problem of having something else to convert to money in the bank.

How does no money make spurious claims harder or more easier to detect? For the avoidance of doubt I was talking about spurious claims at a financial level, where someone is either working when they have said they are not or where someone has money hidden under the mattress that they are not declaring, rather than someone who claims they are unable to walk when they are actually fit as a fiddle. In the last example it will not help, but in the first examples their earnings will have gone their bank account electronically unless they can make arrangements to barter their work for something they need, which is an inconvenience to both parties.

How does no money stop people buying and selling either openly or anonymously? There will be money, but none of it will be held in cash, so all money transactions will leave a trail in the banking system.

Look at the debacle with the Nat west bank when a 'glitch' made it impossible for many people to access their money? Agreed.

Those who had money in their hands were fine, those who only had cards, which now didn't work, were panic stricken and left penniless. literally! Computer says NO! Every system is open to possible problems, and an electronic money system would need to be robust, secure and have various back ups for eventualities such as these. But that should not be a barrier to development. We used to have power cuts in the 60's, but we didn't all stop using electricity.

If money is abolished what will happen to gold? Will that become worthless too? No, it will remain exactly as it is now. It's just that the people who hoard gold soverigns and krugerands paid for in cash will now have to pay for them with money that has passed through a bank.


So money will still exist but only in the bank not in circulation? Yes.

Money being held in the bank will only inconvenience lawbreakers? How so? You have misinterpreted what I wrote. Nowhere did I say that it will ONLY inconvenience lawbreakers. But there will be a massive long term problem for lawbreakers compared to a short term, while we get used to it, inconvenience for everyone else.

If its not in circulation then why is money physically needed at all? You don't physically need to be able to touch money to use it, but you you still need it to exchange for goods and services, the same as it has been used for many years.

Have you spent anytime thinking about this? Yes.

Nebs wrote:

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

pendulum wrote:
Nebs: Don't you think the criminals will find ways to avoid detection in a moneyless state? False ID's, payment in goods rather than cash, and a million other ways, don't underestimate the resourcefulness of criminals. As for your comment "the elderly, the sick, and the TRAVELLERS", I think the travellers are the last group of people that would like to see a crackdown on criminality.

I fully accept that it won't solve everything. Instead of cash work the gardener who mows the lawn each week or the roadmender who tarmacs your drive, will still get paid but it will be in beer or cigarettes rather than cash, but they won't be able to work all week just for beer and cigarettes. Initially the criminals will barter, but at some point they have to convert the goods to money in the bank, there are only so many 50 inch colour TVs that a drug baron will want to take. False ID's for dodgy benefits claims will still appear, but as there will be less burglars and drug dealers in prison maybe they will be able to lock up the fraudsters. People could buy their drugs in american dollars, or euros, but they will have to get those from the bank so anyone changing up twenty quid into euros every friday night would be flagged up as suspect. It won't solve everything, but it will be a start, and a pain in the backside for those outside the law.

So money will still exist but only in the bank not in circulation?

Money being held in the bank will only inconvenience lawbreakers? How so?

If its not in circulation then why is money physically needed at all?

Have you spent anytime thinking about this?

How could the benefit agency be able to tell if someone is claiming while working just by abolishing money? Not abolishing money, just abolishing cash. Money would still be used, but only electronically.

How would abolishing money make fencing and drug dealing anymore difficult? (No money might actually make tracing such transactions more difficult). Because to sell or buy stolen goods or drugs without cash money would mean either the use of electronic transactions (which could be easily traced) or barter in which case the seller then has the problem of having something else to convert to money in the bank.

How does no money make spurious claims harder or more easier to detect? For the avoidance of doubt I was talking about spurious claims at a financial level, where someone is either working when they have said they are not or where someone has money hidden under the mattress that they are not declaring, rather than someone who claims they are unable to walk when they are actually fit as a fiddle. In the last example it will not help, but in the first examples their earnings will have gone their bank account electronically unless they can make arrangements to barter their work for something they need, which is an inconvenience to both parties.

How does no money stop people buying and selling either openly or anonymously? There will be money, but none of it will be held in cash, so all money transactions will leave a trail in the banking system.

Look at the debacle with the Nat west bank when a 'glitch' made it impossible for many people to access their money? Agreed.

Those who had money in their hands were fine, those who only had cards, which now didn't work, were panic stricken and left penniless. literally! Computer says NO! Every system is open to possible problems, and an electronic money system would need to be robust, secure and have various back ups for eventualities such as these. But that should not be a barrier to development. We used to have power cuts in the 60's, but we didn't all stop using electricity.

If money is abolished what will happen to gold? Will that become worthless too? No, it will remain exactly as it is now. It's just that the people who hoard gold soverigns and krugerands paid for in cash will now have to pay for them with money that has passed through a bank.


So money will still exist but only in the bank not in circulation? Yes.

Money being held in the bank will only inconvenience lawbreakers? How so? You have misinterpreted what I wrote. Nowhere did I say that it will ONLY inconvenience lawbreakers. But there will be a massive long term problem for lawbreakers compared to a short term, while we get used to it, inconvenience for everyone else.

If its not in circulation then why is money physically needed at all? You don't physically need to be able to touch money to use it, but you you still need it to exchange for goods and services, the same as it has been used for many years.

Have you spent anytime thinking about this? Yes.

Cash is money and money is cash!

If cash was abolished then what would be the point or even need for money and vice versa?

What you are implying is credit which is what physical money/cash already is.

There is a promise to pay the bearer of the paper the amount specified on that paper (with gold?) but of course it is only exchanged for more paper and the circle ls is unbroken

"Because to sell or buy stolen goods or drugs without cash money would mean either the use of electronic transactions (which could be easily traced) or barter in which case the seller then has the problem of having something else to convert to money in the bank"

Every man made 'problem' has a man made solution.
The white collar thieves already steal millions per year electronically. And of course barter is very much dealing with what then would be currency to replace money/cash

I think you are giving to much credit to mans ingenuity while at the same time ignoring man ingenuity

The "spurious claims" is another thing that falls into the same category. No money or cash available for your labour? Then something else will replace that.
The exchange of labour would have to be for something.

Inconvenience doesn't come into it
In roman times people were paid in salt. A commodity needed can become currency replacing or instead of.

Do you seriously think the bankers will ever allow 'currency' to be beyond their control? They know a vacuum will be filled.

Saying something needs to be robust is really empty rhetoric...so if the machine breaks down what then? More machines to temporary replace the main machine or ready cash made available? Kind of defeats the purpose

People who were without electricity either used something else for light and heat or did without it. The lack of money would see it replaced by something else, countrywide, regionally wide right down to individually wise..it would come down to what someone would accept for what they have got which would mean everything could be deemed currency!

Gold is the currency of the world. Money is only the promise to pay gold to the equivalent of the paper/credit proffered.
If barter in itself becomes currency and the item being bartered a sub-currency then gold would only have value for those who have it and as those numbers dwindled it would eventually lose value.

What you seem to be suggesting is money/cash should be vaulted up somewhere (as gold is now) and used for electrical credit. But that is banking credit (which is what cash money is in lieu of gold) to use to make another form of credit.
Money does not have to exist for your Orwellian control of people's ability to basically survive to come about.

The lack of ready cash would take mankind back to the stone ages but would by it's absence make them free from debit.

I have you thought about this? Yes! But imo not to any meaningful level.

You would crack society to unrealistically try control a minority!

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

pendulum wrote:
Nebs: Don't you think the criminals will find ways to avoid detection in a moneyless state? False ID's, payment in goods rather than cash, and a million other ways, don't underestimate the resourcefulness of criminals. As for your comment "the elderly, the sick, and the TRAVELLERS", I think the travellers are the last group of people that would like to see a crackdown on criminality.

I fully accept that it won't solve everything. Instead of cash work the gardener who mows the lawn each week or the roadmender who tarmacs your drive, will still get paid but it will be in beer or cigarettes rather than cash, but they won't be able to work all week just for beer and cigarettes. Initially the criminals will barter, but at some point they have to convert the goods to money in the bank, there are only so many 50 inch colour TVs that a drug baron will want to take. False ID's for dodgy benefits claims will still appear, but as there will be less burglars and drug dealers in prison maybe they will be able to lock up the fraudsters. People could buy their drugs in american dollars, or euros, but they will have to get those from the bank so anyone changing up twenty quid into euros every friday night would be flagged up as suspect. It won't solve everything, but it will be a start, and a pain in the backside for those outside the law.

So money will still exist but only in the bank not in circulation?

Money being held in the bank will only inconvenience lawbreakers? How so?

If its not in circulation then why is money physically needed at all?

Have you spent anytime thinking about this?

How could the benefit agency be able to tell if someone is claiming while working just by abolishing money? Not abolishing money, just abolishing cash. Money would still be used, but only electronically.

How would abolishing money make fencing and drug dealing anymore difficult? (No money might actually make tracing such transactions more difficult). Because to sell or buy stolen goods or drugs without cash money would mean either the use of electronic transactions (which could be easily traced) or barter in which case the seller then has the problem of having something else to convert to money in the bank.

How does no money make spurious claims harder or more easier to detect? For the avoidance of doubt I was talking about spurious claims at a financial level, where someone is either working when they have said they are not or where someone has money hidden under the mattress that they are not declaring, rather than someone who claims they are unable to walk when they are actually fit as a fiddle. In the last example it will not help, but in the first examples their earnings will have gone their bank account electronically unless they can make arrangements to barter their work for something they need, which is an inconvenience to both parties.

How does no money stop people buying and selling either openly or anonymously? There will be money, but none of it will be held in cash, so all money transactions will leave a trail in the banking system.

Look at the debacle with the Nat west bank when a 'glitch' made it impossible for many people to access their money? Agreed.

Those who had money in their hands were fine, those who only had cards, which now didn't work, were panic stricken and left penniless. literally! Computer says NO! Every system is open to possible problems, and an electronic money system would need to be robust, secure and have various back ups for eventualities such as these. But that should not be a barrier to development. We used to have power cuts in the 60's, but we didn't all stop using electricity.

If money is abolished what will happen to gold? Will that become worthless too? No, it will remain exactly as it is now. It's just that the people who hoard gold soverigns and krugerands paid for in cash will now have to pay for them with money that has passed through a bank.


So money will still exist but only in the bank not in circulation? Yes.

Money being held in the bank will only inconvenience lawbreakers? How so? You have misinterpreted what I wrote. Nowhere did I say that it will ONLY inconvenience lawbreakers. But there will be a massive long term problem for lawbreakers compared to a short term, while we get used to it, inconvenience for everyone else.

If its not in circulation then why is money physically needed at all? You don't physically need to be able to touch money to use it, but you you still need it to exchange for goods and services, the same as it has been used for many years.

Have you spent anytime thinking about this? Yes.

Cash is money and money is cash!

If cash was abolished then what would be the point or even need for money and vice versa?

What you are implying is credit which is what physical money/cash already is.

There is a promise to pay the bearer of the paper the amount specified on that paper (with gold?) but of course it is only exchanged for more paper and the circle ls is unbroken

"Because to sell or buy stolen goods or drugs without cash money would mean either the use of electronic transactions (which could be easily traced) or barter in which case the seller then has the problem of having something else to convert to money in the bank"

Every man made 'problem' has a man made solution.
The white collar thieves already steal millions per year electronically. And of course barter is very much dealing with what then would be currency to replace money/cash

I think you are giving to much credit to mans ingenuity while at the same time ignoring man ingenuity

The "spurious claims" is another thing that falls into the same category. No money or cash available for your labour? Then something else will replace that.
The exchange of labour would have to be for something.

Inconvenience doesn't come into it
In roman times people were paid in salt. A commodity needed can become currency replacing or instead of.

Do you seriously think the bankers will ever allow 'currency' to be beyond their control? They know a vacuum will be filled.

Saying something needs to be robust is really empty rhetoric...so if the machine breaks down what then? More machines to temporary replace the main machine or ready cash made available? Kind of defeats the purpose

People who were without electricity either used something else for light and heat or did without it. The lack of money would see it replaced by something else, countrywide, regionally wide right down to individually wise..it would come down to what someone would accept for what they have got which would mean everything could be deemed currency!

Gold is the currency of the world. Money is only the promise to pay gold to the equivalent of the paper/credit proffered.
If barter in itself becomes currency and the item being bartered a sub-currency then gold would only have value for those who have it and as those numbers dwindled it would eventually lose value.

What you seem to be suggesting is money/cash should be vaulted up somewhere (as gold is now) and used for electrical credit. But that is banking credit (which is what cash money is in lieu of gold) to use to make another form of credit.
Money does not have to exist for your Orwellian control of people's ability to basically survive to come about.

The lack of ready cash would take mankind back to the stone ages but would by it's absence make them free from debit.

I have you thought about this? Yes! But imo not to any meaningful level.

You would crack society to unrealistically try control a minority!

I don't know whether you are being deliberately obtuse, or are just making things up, or whether you are unable to understand English.

I am not saying get rid of money. I am saying just get rid of cash. There is a difference, but you don't seem to understand the difference as is evidenced by your opening remark of "Cash is money and money is cash!". These words are not always interchangable. Everyone will still have their money but it will all be electronic money rather than pieces of paper.



On your point about salt, lets not forget that most people are honest law abiding citizens. They go to work, earn their money, and spend it as they please on little luxuries like food, clothes, mortgages, gas, electricity, taxes etc. For those people things will not change. In fact many of the things on that list are already paid for without the use of cash. All that will happen is that when they go out for a night at the pictures they will have to buy their ticket and popcorn, and pay for their taxi home, with a card rather than cash. I don't see the problem.

Yes, cash machines break down. But without cash we won't need them. It will all be done by card or mobile phone or some other device yet to be invented.

You said "What you seem to be suggesting is money/cash should be vaulted up somewhere". I am NOT suggesting that at all. I think it is clear what I am suggesting. You could simply pay all the cash into the banks, you then have the money recorded electronically and, for want of a better idea, set fire to all the cash as it is no longer needed. I've got a £10 note in my pocket and another £10 in the bank. So I pay my £10 note into the bank and now I have £20 in the bank. The bank then burns the £10 note, and I still have my £20.

You also said "The lack of ready cash would take mankind back to the stone ages but would by it's absence make them free from debt." Er, no it wouldn't. Many things are already bought and sold without any cash changing hands, the money is moved electronically instead. It works. If you owe someone some money then simply removing notes and coins from circulation would not free you from that debt.

I am not saying it will cure all the ills of the country, but it would certainly apply the brakes to a lot of nefarious activities. Overall I think it would do more good than harm.

This is a fun thread! :-)

Anyone know what the loan to deposit ratio is for European banks atm? I bet it's mega scary!

"i promise to pay the bearer..." hahaha yeah right, with what?

Abolishing cash would certainly hurt politicians:-

Cash for questions
Cash for answers
Cash for access
Cash for Saudi arms deals
Cash donations to the party.

Nebs wrote:

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

pendulum wrote:
Nebs: Don't you think the criminals will find ways to avoid detection in a moneyless state? False ID's, payment in goods rather than cash, and a million other ways, don't underestimate the resourcefulness of criminals. As for your comment "the elderly, the sick, and the TRAVELLERS", I think the travellers are the last group of people that would like to see a crackdown on criminality.

I fully accept that it won't solve everything. Instead of cash work the gardener who mows the lawn each week or the roadmender who tarmacs your drive, will still get paid but it will be in beer or cigarettes rather than cash, but they won't be able to work all week just for beer and cigarettes. Initially the criminals will barter, but at some point they have to convert the goods to money in the bank, there are only so many 50 inch colour TVs that a drug baron will want to take. False ID's for dodgy benefits claims will still appear, but as there will be less burglars and drug dealers in prison maybe they will be able to lock up the fraudsters. People could buy their drugs in american dollars, or euros, but they will have to get those from the bank so anyone changing up twenty quid into euros every friday night would be flagged up as suspect. It won't solve everything, but it will be a start, and a pain in the backside for those outside the law.

So money will still exist but only in the bank not in circulation?

Money being held in the bank will only inconvenience lawbreakers? How so?

If its not in circulation then why is money physically needed at all?

Have you spent anytime thinking about this?

How could the benefit agency be able to tell if someone is claiming while working just by abolishing money? Not abolishing money, just abolishing cash. Money would still be used, but only electronically.

How would abolishing money make fencing and drug dealing anymore difficult? (No money might actually make tracing such transactions more difficult). Because to sell or buy stolen goods or drugs without cash money would mean either the use of electronic transactions (which could be easily traced) or barter in which case the seller then has the problem of having something else to convert to money in the bank.

How does no money make spurious claims harder or more easier to detect? For the avoidance of doubt I was talking about spurious claims at a financial level, where someone is either working when they have said they are not or where someone has money hidden under the mattress that they are not declaring, rather than someone who claims they are unable to walk when they are actually fit as a fiddle. In the last example it will not help, but in the first examples their earnings will have gone their bank account electronically unless they can make arrangements to barter their work for something they need, which is an inconvenience to both parties.

How does no money stop people buying and selling either openly or anonymously? There will be money, but none of it will be held in cash, so all money transactions will leave a trail in the banking system.

Look at the debacle with the Nat west bank when a 'glitch' made it impossible for many people to access their money? Agreed.

Those who had money in their hands were fine, those who only had cards, which now didn't work, were panic stricken and left penniless. literally! Computer says NO! Every system is open to possible problems, and an electronic money system would need to be robust, secure and have various back ups for eventualities such as these. But that should not be a barrier to development. We used to have power cuts in the 60's, but we didn't all stop using electricity.

If money is abolished what will happen to gold? Will that become worthless too? No, it will remain exactly as it is now. It's just that the people who hoard gold soverigns and krugerands paid for in cash will now have to pay for them with money that has passed through a bank.


So money will still exist but only in the bank not in circulation? Yes.

Money being held in the bank will only inconvenience lawbreakers? How so? You have misinterpreted what I wrote. Nowhere did I say that it will ONLY inconvenience lawbreakers. But there will be a massive long term problem for lawbreakers compared to a short term, while we get used to it, inconvenience for everyone else.

If its not in circulation then why is money physically needed at all? You don't physically need to be able to touch money to use it, but you you still need it to exchange for goods and services, the same as it has been used for many years.

Have you spent anytime thinking about this? Yes.

Cash is money and money is cash!

If cash was abolished then what would be the point or even need for money and vice versa?

What you are implying is credit which is what physical money/cash already is.

There is a promise to pay the bearer of the paper the amount specified on that paper (with gold?) but of course it is only exchanged for more paper and the circle ls is unbroken

"Because to sell or buy stolen goods or drugs without cash money would mean either the use of electronic transactions (which could be easily traced) or barter in which case the seller then has the problem of having something else to convert to money in the bank"

Every man made 'problem' has a man made solution.
The white collar thieves already steal millions per year electronically. And of course barter is very much dealing with what then would be currency to replace money/cash

I think you are giving to much credit to mans ingenuity while at the same time ignoring man ingenuity

The "spurious claims" is another thing that falls into the same category. No money or cash available for your labour? Then something else will replace that.
The exchange of labour would have to be for something.

Inconvenience doesn't come into it
In roman times people were paid in salt. A commodity needed can become currency replacing or instead of.

Do you seriously think the bankers will ever allow 'currency' to be beyond their control? They know a vacuum will be filled.

Saying something needs to be robust is really empty rhetoric...so if the machine breaks down what then? More machines to temporary replace the main machine or ready cash made available? Kind of defeats the purpose

People who were without electricity either used something else for light and heat or did without it. The lack of money would see it replaced by something else, countrywide, regionally wide right down to individually wise..it would come down to what someone would accept for what they have got which would mean everything could be deemed currency!

Gold is the currency of the world. Money is only the promise to pay gold to the equivalent of the paper/credit proffered.
If barter in itself becomes currency and the item being bartered a sub-currency then gold would only have value for those who have it and as those numbers dwindled it would eventually lose value.

What you seem to be suggesting is money/cash should be vaulted up somewhere (as gold is now) and used for electrical credit. But that is banking credit (which is what cash money is in lieu of gold) to use to make another form of credit.
Money does not have to exist for your Orwellian control of people's ability to basically survive to come about.

The lack of ready cash would take mankind back to the stone ages but would by it's absence make them free from debit.

I have you thought about this? Yes! But imo not to any meaningful level.

You would crack society to unrealistically try control a minority!

I don't know whether you are being deliberately obtuse, or are just making things up, or whether you are unable to understand English.

I am not saying get rid of money. I am saying just get rid of cash. There is a difference, but you don't seem to understand the difference as is evidenced by your opening remark of "Cash is money and money is cash!". These words are not always interchangable. Everyone will still have their money but it will all be electronic money rather than pieces of paper.



On your point about salt, lets not forget that most people are honest law abiding citizens. They go to work, earn their money, and spend it as they please on little luxuries like food, clothes, mortgages, gas, electricity, taxes etc. For those people things will not change. In fact many of the things on that list are already paid for without the use of cash. All that will happen is that when they go out for a night at the pictures they will have to buy their ticket and popcorn, and pay for their taxi home, with a card rather than cash. I don't see the problem.

Yes, cash machines break down. But without cash we won't need them. It will all be done by card or mobile phone or some other device yet to be invented.

You said "What you seem to be suggesting is money/cash should be vaulted up somewhere". I am NOT suggesting that at all. I think it is clear what I am suggesting. You could simply pay all the cash into the banks, you then have the money recorded electronically and, for want of a better idea, set fire to all the cash as it is no longer needed. I've got a £10 note in my pocket and another £10 in the bank. So I pay my £10 note into the bank and now I have £20 in the bank. The bank then burns the £10 note, and I still have my £20.

You also said "The lack of ready cash would take mankind back to the stone ages but would by it's absence make them free from debt." Er, no it wouldn't. Many things are already bought and sold without any cash changing hands, the money is moved electronically instead. It works. If you owe someone some money then simply removing notes and coins from circulation would not free you from that debt.

I am not saying it will cure all the ills of the country, but it would certainly apply the brakes to a lot of nefarious activities. Overall I think it would do more good than harm.

You consider im being obtuse because i question your rather shallow reasoning on the matter?

Making things up? In regards to what?

Can you explain how cash and money (by that i take it you mean currency) are different?

So the electronic 'money' people will have will not physically exist but be in the way of credit on a data base?

Paper money at this time is credit in the pocket for gold. You want data to be electronic credit for money. So you would be setting up another tier of credit for gold which is the only real currency.

You dont think this revolution will change things for honest law abiding people? Why? Because they are that? Will the data base have moral and ethic indicators? How will it know who is good and who is bad?

" Yes, cash machines break down. But without cash we won't need them. It will all be done by card or mobile phone or some other device yet to be invented"

Ever read the bible? LOL

Where is the guarantee that your money paid into the bank and electronically stored will be returned?
The paper (money) is your receipt that you are owed that amount, thats why there is a promise to pay the bearer.

Without that receipt you cannot claim you are owed money and taking the law at its barest you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if the bank wanted to withhold your money.

By giving over your receipt it could be argued that money you pay into the bank doesn't belong to you. Possession being nine tenths of the law.

Things are moved around and sold without money BUT with the promise of money to back the move/sale. Without the money backing they wouldn't move.

You misunderstand what i mean by money is debt. If money didn't exist there would be no debt, how can you owe what doesn't exist.

So far you havent produced one good reason for withdrawing money that couldn't be done with money still in circulation.

You would reinvent the wheel to avoid a little pebble in the road.

Wow!!!

Back on topic...

Why are commuters so selfish? If they are not clogging up local roads with their cars they are deliberatly breaking ticket machines.

Your choice to get a train to work, you choose to drive to the station, pay up and stop whinging.

v.randy wrote:
Why has everybody got it in for the 2p.
Its the poxy 5p that really gets up my chuff.
No one wants them and no machines accept them AND they're SO small...WHY?????????

??????????

Where you're going wrong is sticking coinage up your chuff.

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

pendulum wrote: Nebs: Don't you think the criminals will find ways to avoid detection in a moneyless state? False ID's, payment in goods rather than cash, and a million other ways, don't underestimate the resourcefulness of criminals. As for your comment "the elderly, the sick, and the TRAVELLERS", I think the travellers are the last group of people that would like to see a crackdown on criminality.

I fully accept that it won't solve everything. Instead of cash work the gardener who mows the lawn each week or the roadmender who tarmacs your drive, will still get paid but it will be in beer or cigarettes rather than cash, but they won't be able to work all week just for beer and cigarettes. Initially the criminals will barter, but at some point they have to convert the goods to money in the bank, there are only so many 50 inch colour TVs that a drug baron will want to take. False ID's for dodgy benefits claims will still appear, but as there will be less burglars and drug dealers in prison maybe they will be able to lock up the fraudsters. People could buy their drugs in american dollars, or euros, but they will have to get those from the bank so anyone changing up twenty quid into euros every friday night would be flagged up as suspect. It won't solve everything, but it will be a start, and a pain in the backside for those outside the law.

So money will still exist but only in the bank not in circulation? Money being held in the bank will only inconvenience lawbreakers? How so? If its not in circulation then why is money physically needed at all? Have you spent anytime thinking about this?

How could the benefit agency be able to tell if someone is claiming while working just by abolishing money? Not abolishing money, just abolishing cash. Money would still be used, but only electronically. How would abolishing money make fencing and drug dealing anymore difficult? (No money might actually make tracing such transactions more difficult). Because to sell or buy stolen goods or drugs without cash money would mean either the use of electronic transactions (which could be easily traced) or barter in which case the seller then has the problem of having something else to convert to money in the bank. How does no money make spurious claims harder or more easier to detect? For the avoidance of doubt I was talking about spurious claims at a financial level, where someone is either working when they have said they are not or where someone has money hidden under the mattress that they are not declaring, rather than someone who claims they are unable to walk when they are actually fit as a fiddle. In the last example it will not help, but in the first examples their earnings will have gone their bank account electronically unless they can make arrangements to barter their work for something they need, which is an inconvenience to both parties. How does no money stop people buying and selling either openly or anonymously? There will be money, but none of it will be held in cash, so all money transactions will leave a trail in the banking system. Look at the debacle with the Nat west bank when a 'glitch' made it impossible for many people to access their money? Agreed. Those who had money in their hands were fine, those who only had cards, which now didn't work, were panic stricken and left penniless. literally! Computer says NO! Every system is open to possible problems, and an electronic money system would need to be robust, secure and have various back ups for eventualities such as these. But that should not be a barrier to development. We used to have power cuts in the 60's, but we didn't all stop using electricity. If money is abolished what will happen to gold? Will that become worthless too? No, it will remain exactly as it is now. It's just that the people who hoard gold soverigns and krugerands paid for in cash will now have to pay for them with money that has passed through a bank. So money will still exist but only in the bank not in circulation? Yes. Money being held in the bank will only inconvenience lawbreakers? How so? You have misinterpreted what I wrote. Nowhere did I say that it will ONLY inconvenience lawbreakers. But there will be a massive long term problem for lawbreakers compared to a short term, while we get used to it, inconvenience for everyone else. If its not in circulation then why is money physically needed at all? You don't physically need to be able to touch money to use it, but you you still need it to exchange for goods and services, the same as it has been used for many years. Have you spent anytime thinking about this? Yes.

Cash is money and money is cash! If cash was abolished then what would be the point or even need for money and vice versa? What you are implying is credit which is what physical money/cash already is. There is a promise to pay the bearer of the paper the amount specified on that paper (with gold?) but of course it is only exchanged for more paper and the circle ls is unbroken "Because to sell or buy stolen goods or drugs without cash money would mean either the use of electronic transactions (which could be easily traced) or barter in which case the seller then has the problem of having something else to convert to money in the bank" Every man made 'problem' has a man made solution. The white collar thieves already steal millions per year electronically. And of course barter is very much dealing with what then would be currency to replace money/cash I think you are giving to much credit to mans ingenuity while at the same time ignoring man ingenuity The "spurious claims" is another thing that falls into the same category. No money or cash available for your labour? Then something else will replace that. The exchange of labour would have to be for something. Inconvenience doesn't come into it In roman times people were paid in salt. A commodity needed can become currency replacing or instead of. Do you seriously think the bankers will ever allow 'currency' to be beyond their control? They know a vacuum will be filled. Saying something needs to be robust is really empty rhetoric...so if the machine breaks down what then? More machines to temporary replace the main machine or ready cash made available? Kind of defeats the purpose People who were without electricity either used something else for light and heat or did without it. The lack of money would see it replaced by something else, countrywide, regionally wide right down to individually wise..it would come down to what someone would accept for what they have got which would mean everything could be deemed currency! Gold is the currency of the world. Money is only the promise to pay gold to the equivalent of the paper/credit proffered. If barter in itself becomes currency and the item being bartered a sub-currency then gold would only have value for those who have it and as those numbers dwindled it would eventually lose value. What you seem to be suggesting is money/cash should be vaulted up somewhere (as gold is now) and used for electrical credit. But that is banking credit (which is what cash money is in lieu of gold) to use to make another form of credit. Money does not have to exist for your Orwellian control of people's ability to basically survive to come about. The lack of ready cash would take mankind back to the stone ages but would by it's absence make them free from debit. I have you thought about this? Yes! But imo not to any meaningful level. You would crack society to unrealistically try control a minority!

I don't know whether you are being deliberately obtuse, or are just making things up, or whether you are unable to understand English. I am not saying get rid of money. I am saying just get rid of cash. There is a difference, but you don't seem to understand the difference as is evidenced by your opening remark of "Cash is money and money is cash!". These words are not always interchangable. Everyone will still have their money but it will all be electronic money rather than pieces of paper. On your point about salt, lets not forget that most people are honest law abiding citizens. They go to work, earn their money, and spend it as they please on little luxuries like food, clothes, mortgages, gas, electricity, taxes etc. For those people things will not change. In fact many of the things on that list are already paid for without the use of cash. All that will happen is that when they go out for a night at the pictures they will have to buy their ticket and popcorn, and pay for their taxi home, with a card rather than cash. I don't see the problem. Yes, cash machines break down. But without cash we won't need them. It will all be done by card or mobile phone or some other device yet to be invented. You said "What you seem to be suggesting is money/cash should be vaulted up somewhere". I am NOT suggesting that at all. I think it is clear what I am suggesting. You could simply pay all the cash into the banks, you then have the money recorded electronically and, for want of a better idea, set fire to all the cash as it is no longer needed. I've got a £10 note in my pocket and another £10 in the bank. So I pay my £10 note into the bank and now I have £20 in the bank. The bank then burns the £10 note, and I still have my £20. You also said "The lack of ready cash would take mankind back to the stone ages but would by it's absence make them free from debt." Er, no it wouldn't. Many things are already bought and sold without any cash changing hands, the money is moved electronically instead. It works. If you owe someone some money then simply removing notes and coins from circulation would not free you from that debt. I am not saying it will cure all the ills of the country, but it would certainly apply the brakes to a lot of nefarious activities. Overall I think it would do more good than harm.

You consider im being obtuse because i question your rather shallow reasoning on the matter? Making things up? In regards to what? Can you explain how cash and money (by that i take it you mean currency) are different? So the electronic 'money' people will have will not physically exist but be in the way of credit on a data base? Paper money at this time is credit in the pocket for gold. You want data to be electronic credit for money. So you would be setting up another tier of credit for gold which is the only real currency. You dont think this revolution will change things for honest law abiding people? Why? Because they are that? Will the data base have moral and ethic indicators? How will it know who is good and who is bad? " Yes, cash machines break down. But without cash we won't need them. It will all be done by card or mobile phone or some other device yet to be invented" Ever read the bible? LOL Where is the guarantee that your money paid into the bank and electronically stored will be returned? The paper (money) is your receipt that you are owed that amount, thats why there is a promise to pay the bearer. Without that receipt you cannot claim you are owed money and taking the law at its barest you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if the bank wanted to withhold your money. By giving over your receipt it could be argued that money you pay into the bank doesn't belong to you. Possession being nine tenths of the law. Things are moved around and sold without money BUT with the promise of money to back the move/sale. Without the money backing they wouldn't move. You misunderstand what i mean by money is debt. If money didn't exist there would be no debt, how can you owe what doesn't exist. So far you havent produced one good reason for withdrawing money that couldn't be done with money still in circulation. You would reinvent the wheel to avoid a little pebble in the road.

Give it up Nebs, he isn't worth it, all you'll get is playground logic and insults from old ET. The travellers would fight tooth and nail to retain cash as their whole economy is based on cash, they'd have to start paying income tax and stop conning pensioners if we ever switched to a cashless system.
.
Wasn't there an experiemnt going on in the West Country somewhere to run a whole town without cash. Does anyone know how that worked out?

God Almighty wrote:

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

pendulum wrote: Nebs: Don't you think the criminals will find ways to avoid detection in a moneyless state? False ID's, payment in goods rather than cash, and a million other ways, don't underestimate the resourcefulness of criminals. As for your comment "the elderly, the sick, and the TRAVELLERS", I think the travellers are the last group of people that would like to see a crackdown on criminality.

I fully accept that it won't solve everything. Instead of cash work the gardener who mows the lawn each week or the roadmender who tarmacs your drive, will still get paid but it will be in beer or cigarettes rather than cash, but they won't be able to work all week just for beer and cigarettes. Initially the criminals will barter, but at some point they have to convert the goods to money in the bank, there are only so many 50 inch colour TVs that a drug baron will want to take. False ID's for dodgy benefits claims will still appear, but as there will be less burglars and drug dealers in prison maybe they will be able to lock up the fraudsters. People could buy their drugs in american dollars, or euros, but they will have to get those from the bank so anyone changing up twenty quid into euros every friday night would be flagged up as suspect. It won't solve everything, but it will be a start, and a pain in the backside for those outside the law.

So money will still exist but only in the bank not in circulation? Money being held in the bank will only inconvenience lawbreakers? How so? If its not in circulation then why is money physically needed at all? Have you spent anytime thinking about this?

How could the benefit agency be able to tell if someone is claiming while working just by abolishing money? Not abolishing money, just abolishing cash. Money would still be used, but only electronically. How would abolishing money make fencing and drug dealing anymore difficult? (No money might actually make tracing such transactions more difficult). Because to sell or buy stolen goods or drugs without cash money would mean either the use of electronic transactions (which could be easily traced) or barter in which case the seller then has the problem of having something else to convert to money in the bank. How does no money make spurious claims harder or more easier to detect? For the avoidance of doubt I was talking about spurious claims at a financial level, where someone is either working when they have said they are not or where someone has money hidden under the mattress that they are not declaring, rather than someone who claims they are unable to walk when they are actually fit as a fiddle. In the last example it will not help, but in the first examples their earnings will have gone their bank account electronically unless they can make arrangements to barter their work for something they need, which is an inconvenience to both parties. How does no money stop people buying and selling either openly or anonymously? There will be money, but none of it will be held in cash, so all money transactions will leave a trail in the banking system. Look at the debacle with the Nat west bank when a 'glitch' made it impossible for many people to access their money? Agreed. Those who had money in their hands were fine, those who only had cards, which now didn't work, were panic stricken and left penniless. literally! Computer says NO! Every system is open to possible problems, and an electronic money system would need to be robust, secure and have various back ups for eventualities such as these. But that should not be a barrier to development. We used to have power cuts in the 60's, but we didn't all stop using electricity. If money is abolished what will happen to gold? Will that become worthless too? No, it will remain exactly as it is now. It's just that the people who hoard gold soverigns and krugerands paid for in cash will now have to pay for them with money that has passed through a bank. So money will still exist but only in the bank not in circulation? Yes. Money being held in the bank will only inconvenience lawbreakers? How so? You have misinterpreted what I wrote. Nowhere did I say that it will ONLY inconvenience lawbreakers. But there will be a massive long term problem for lawbreakers compared to a short term, while we get used to it, inconvenience for everyone else. If its not in circulation then why is money physically needed at all? You don't physically need to be able to touch money to use it, but you you still need it to exchange for goods and services, the same as it has been used for many years. Have you spent anytime thinking about this? Yes.

Cash is money and money is cash! If cash was abolished then what would be the point or even need for money and vice versa? What you are implying is credit which is what physical money/cash already is. There is a promise to pay the bearer of the paper the amount specified on that paper (with gold?) but of course it is only exchanged for more paper and the circle ls is unbroken "Because to sell or buy stolen goods or drugs without cash money would mean either the use of electronic transactions (which could be easily traced) or barter in which case the seller then has the problem of having something else to convert to money in the bank" Every man made 'problem' has a man made solution. The white collar thieves already steal millions per year electronically. And of course barter is very much dealing with what then would be currency to replace money/cash I think you are giving to much credit to mans ingenuity while at the same time ignoring man ingenuity The "spurious claims" is another thing that falls into the same category. No money or cash available for your labour? Then something else will replace that. The exchange of labour would have to be for something. Inconvenience doesn't come into it In roman times people were paid in salt. A commodity needed can become currency replacing or instead of. Do you seriously think the bankers will ever allow 'currency' to be beyond their control? They know a vacuum will be filled. Saying something needs to be robust is really empty rhetoric...so if the machine breaks down what then? More machines to temporary replace the main machine or ready cash made available? Kind of defeats the purpose People who were without electricity either used something else for light and heat or did without it. The lack of money would see it replaced by something else, countrywide, regionally wide right down to individually wise..it would come down to what someone would accept for what they have got which would mean everything could be deemed currency! Gold is the currency of the world. Money is only the promise to pay gold to the equivalent of the paper/credit proffered. If barter in itself becomes currency and the item being bartered a sub-currency then gold would only have value for those who have it and as those numbers dwindled it would eventually lose value. What you seem to be suggesting is money/cash should be vaulted up somewhere (as gold is now) and used for electrical credit. But that is banking credit (which is what cash money is in lieu of gold) to use to make another form of credit. Money does not have to exist for your Orwellian control of people's ability to basically survive to come about. The lack of ready cash would take mankind back to the stone ages but would by it's absence make them free from debit. I have you thought about this? Yes! But imo not to any meaningful level. You would crack society to unrealistically try control a minority!

I don't know whether you are being deliberately obtuse, or are just making things up, or whether you are unable to understand English. I am not saying get rid of money. I am saying just get rid of cash. There is a difference, but you don't seem to understand the difference as is evidenced by your opening remark of "Cash is money and money is cash!". These words are not always interchangable. Everyone will still have their money but it will all be electronic money rather than pieces of paper. On your point about salt, lets not forget that most people are honest law abiding citizens. They go to work, earn their money, and spend it as they please on little luxuries like food, clothes, mortgages, gas, electricity, taxes etc. For those people things will not change. In fact many of the things on that list are already paid for without the use of cash. All that will happen is that when they go out for a night at the pictures they will have to buy their ticket and popcorn, and pay for their taxi home, with a card rather than cash. I don't see the problem. Yes, cash machines break down. But without cash we won't need them. It will all be done by card or mobile phone or some other device yet to be invented. You said "What you seem to be suggesting is money/cash should be vaulted up somewhere". I am NOT suggesting that at all. I think it is clear what I am suggesting. You could simply pay all the cash into the banks, you then have the money recorded electronically and, for want of a better idea, set fire to all the cash as it is no longer needed. I've got a £10 note in my pocket and another £10 in the bank. So I pay my £10 note into the bank and now I have £20 in the bank. The bank then burns the £10 note, and I still have my £20. You also said "The lack of ready cash would take mankind back to the stone ages but would by it's absence make them free from debt." Er, no it wouldn't. Many things are already bought and sold without any cash changing hands, the money is moved electronically instead. It works. If you owe someone some money then simply removing notes and coins from circulation would not free you from that debt. I am not saying it will cure all the ills of the country, but it would certainly apply the brakes to a lot of nefarious activities. Overall I think it would do more good than harm.

You consider im being obtuse because i question your rather shallow reasoning on the matter? Making things up? In regards to what? Can you explain how cash and money (by that i take it you mean currency) are different? So the electronic 'money' people will have will not physically exist but be in the way of credit on a data base? Paper money at this time is credit in the pocket for gold. You want data to be electronic credit for money. So you would be setting up another tier of credit for gold which is the only real currency. You dont think this revolution will change things for honest law abiding people? Why? Because they are that? Will the data base have moral and ethic indicators? How will it know who is good and who is bad? " Yes, cash machines break down. But without cash we won't need them. It will all be done by card or mobile phone or some other device yet to be invented" Ever read the bible? LOL Where is the guarantee that your money paid into the bank and electronically stored will be returned? The paper (money) is your receipt that you are owed that amount, thats why there is a promise to pay the bearer. Without that receipt you cannot claim you are owed money and taking the law at its barest you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if the bank wanted to withhold your money. By giving over your receipt it could be argued that money you pay into the bank doesn't belong to you. Possession being nine tenths of the law. Things are moved around and sold without money BUT with the promise of money to back the move/sale. Without the money backing they wouldn't move. You misunderstand what i mean by money is debt. If money didn't exist there would be no debt, how can you owe what doesn't exist. So far you havent produced one good reason for withdrawing money that couldn't be done with money still in circulation. You would reinvent the wheel to avoid a little pebble in the road.

Give it up Nebs, he isn't worth it, all you'll get is playground logic and insults from old ET. The travellers would fight tooth and nail to retain cash as their whole economy is based on cash, they'd have to start paying income tax and stop conning pensioners if we ever switched to a cashless system.
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Wasn't there an experiemnt going on in the West Country somewhere to run a whole town without cash. Does anyone know how that worked out?

You are a deranged person and need to be looked at very closely.

You feel if a person from a culture you hate makes a comment then its your duty to slur that person and his culture as you have here. You have done that on another thread as well. It is clear trolling with a racial tinge!


It is clearly done to restrict people from my culture taking part in forum debate.


Now in connection to what i have actually posted. Just what is it you feel i have stated that is incorrect or wrong or is it the fact that i dared post at all?

A pattern has emerged in regards to your agenda. You WILL be held accountable for it.

Still spouting nonsense ET? I won't be held accountable for anything, because I only ever speak the truth whether you like it or not. There is something wrong with your brain ET, you really should seek medical advice.

You have been clearly proven a liar on another thread

http://www.echo-news
.co.uk/news/9909969.
Green_belt_land_in_B
asildon_faces_fight_
for_survival/

And this has rankled with you to the point you are now following me around the site sluring me and my community and stating its truth! Weirdo!

But lets humour you and follow you logic in your slurs.

You denigrate a whole community because of the despicable action of a few...that being the case, and using your warped logic, there are pedophile's in your community, therefore you and the rest of your community are pedophiles too! Is that the truth?

Of course it isn't any more than using your stupid logic in regards to my community isn't the "truth"

You have a disturbed and warped personality! You logic alone would suggest that but your insistence you quote from a report that has NEVER been released into the public domain, which even posters who might be inclined to support your ramblings have agreed with, really does settle the issue.

Now rather than giving us example of your disturbed personality and your warped logic and "truth" how about you comment on the 'electronic money' issue or indeed the topic of the thread the bent 2p...iv a feeling anything misshapen might have an attraction for you!

Still talking twisted rubbish ET? I'm not the proven liar at all and if you keep saying this I shall be talking to the Echo about you. I told you months ago about the Wilson report but you didn't like what it said so you've been trying to deny it exists ever since except that now you have had to admit that it does exist haven't you? So who is the ignorant one ET? If there is one thing I abhor it is ignorance, a quality you have in spades as almost everyone else who has responded to your twisted comments would confirm. Oh dear, does this mean I will get more of your peurile meaningless playground threats?

God Almighty wrote:
Still talking twisted rubbish ET? I'm not the proven liar at all and if you keep saying this I shall be talking to the Echo about you. I told you months ago about the Wilson report but you didn't like what it said so you've been trying to deny it exists ever since except that now you have had to admit that it does exist haven't you? So who is the ignorant one ET? If there is one thing I abhor it is ignorance, a quality you have in spades as almost everyone else who has responded to your twisted comments would confirm. Oh dear, does this mean I will get more of your peurile meaningless playground threats?

Nothing twisted around here but you!

You have been shown to lie about reading a report that has never been released to the public and even quote from it!..nothing twisted there but you.

You use logic that says if anyone within a community commits a crime then all the community is guilty of that crime..nothing twisted there but you

You then post im ignorant, meaning im ignorant to the fact the report has never been released, and yet i state clearly and often that this report, you quote from and state you have read, hasn't been released into the public domain and all agree with that except you!...nothing twisted there but you

When asked to put up the source or a link to the report you cant! Yet you still insist your quotes from it are the "truth"...nothing twisted there but you.

No threats are made but warnings given.

You have broken the law i believe quite a few times.

You also state you work for the most respected society in the country, which is a concern...do you work with vulnerable people? If so you need to be carefully looked at...for if do you then there is certainly something twisted there besides you...

Report me to the Echo, it would be clear to them that you follow me around the site and not i you! You lie i reveal your lies. So Simple that even you, who has stated they have a near genius IQ, should be able to follow.

More ludicrous nonsense from the high and mighty twisted one, so where do you think the Irish press got their story from if the report has never been released and how did they base some of the TV prog on the report if it isn't available? You really are such a silly billy ET but you do make us laugh, ho ho! More threats coming? Seems to be the modus operandii of you travellers doesn't it? You ignore the laws that you don't like but you run screaming for the law when it suits your nefarious purposes except that when you did that about DF you LOST didn't you?! Ha ha! Serves you right.

PS I did warn you months ago that you won't find academic reports by simple googling, if they accepted all academic reports your google searches would be overwhelmed by them, you have to try a bit harder and use your brain a bit more to get academic reports. Always knew you would fail to do this but you insisted that you are more intelligent than anyone else so we let you get on with it. Still laughing!

ET "You also state you work for the most respected society in the country, which is a concern...do you work with vulnerable people?"
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You get everything wrong, AS USUAL, I never said any such thing, what I said was that I belong to one of the most respected professions and I belong to a Royal Institute. Got that now? Also yes I do do things with kids for which I am respected and honoured and yes I am CRB checked if you know what that means.

Get rid of cash. Make all movements of money electronic.

Nebs wrote:
Get rid of cash. Make all movements of money electronic.

And why not? Don't suppose you know how the experiment to make a west country town cashless went do you?

God Almighty wrote:
More ludicrous nonsense from the high and mighty twisted one, so where do you think the Irish press got their story from if the report has never been released and how did they base some of the TV prog on the report if it isn't available? You really are such a silly billy ET but you do make us laugh, ho ho! More threats coming? Seems to be the modus operandii of you travellers doesn't it? You ignore the laws that you don't like but you run screaming for the law when it suits your nefarious purposes except that when you did that about DF you LOST didn't you?! Ha ha! Serves you right.

The paper article you link does not report the quotes you state you got from the report, nor does the article state any of what it reports came from the report other than to quote Dr Wilson. Dr Wilson doesn't say what you quoted.

It is clear the production company worked with the Dr on the investigation and quoted what he reported to him. That documentary is the nearest thing to any report.

That documentary does not state what you state you read in the report.

Everyone who has researched this has stated the report is not released ( some reading conspiracy into that) all except you? Who states you have read it but cant link to where you read it or to it. (because you cant be bothered) LIES! Clear and undisputed!

So we are back to you quoting a report you state you have read which has NOT been released to the public.

The Dr even says he is still researching the matter.

His comments on the investigation is very shallow and he even implies that by saying he doesn't know when, how or why a split between the cultures came about 2000 years ago.

He dosen't says how he came to the conclusion there was a split while agreeing the Pavee and the Irish are different cultures!

In the documentary he reports that *shared* Pavee DNA has a strand of DNA that isn't matched outside of the Pavee culture not once does he say what you quote is in his report a report he has never released.

Now for more of your filibustering attempt at distracting from you LIES!

No im not a "silly billy" but its clear you have been outed as a liar and now you try to trivialise the whole matter.. after 5 months of you quoting lies to slur a whole community. You have even gone onto other threads trying to distract from you LIES...and had your @rse kicked there too. LOL. Mug.

Travellers are not typical of each other in much the same any members of any community are not typical of each other.

Your slurs of community blame has come back to haunt you... as they show you to be a rather stupid person, for only a warped idiot would come to the conclusion that crime committed by a few in a community means all are guilty.

DF is an on going thing, it hasn't been lost or won but has evolved into other battles.

God Almighty wrote:
ET "You also state you work for the most respected society in the country, which is a concern...do you work with vulnerable people?"
.
You get everything wrong, AS USUAL, I never said any such thing, what I said was that I belong to one of the most respected professions and I belong to a Royal Institute. Got that now? Also yes I do do things with kids for which I am respected and honoured and yes I am CRB checked if you know what that means.

So your warped logic that all of a community is as guilty of a crime as an individual in the community doesn't apply to you or your community?

Im not sure your profession can be that respected if it has you as a member!

BUT, then again like most psychopaths you probably appear normal and only show your true colours when you can be anonymous... as on here...

(or so you think)

"Dr Wilson doesn't say what you quoted". err yes it does, even in the press reports, Perhaps you should try reading them more carefully. Ask someone to help you if that's too hard for you to do.
.
"Travellers are not typical of each other in much the same any members of any community are not typical of each other". Err yes you are, or at least you are more like each other than most other communities as the genetics tell us that you kept yourselves isolated from the main population and as there was never a large population of travellers that means you have a tiny gene pool compared to most populations which is why the Dublin Royal College of Surgeons says you have more congenital defects than the rest of the Irish population. True whether you like it or not.
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"In the documentary he reports that *shared* Pavee DNA has a strand of DNA that isn't matched outside of the Pavee culture". If you actually knew anything about this subject you would know that everyone in the world has bits of DNA that are not "matched" and they won't be until we have tested the DNA of every other human being on earth. What we can say is that he found a bit of DNA that seems to originate in Turkey but everyone in these fair isles has bits of DNA from the eastern Med from Neolithic farmers and as you lot split from the main Irish population a thousand years or so ago (several thousand years after the Neolithic farmers arrived here) it would be a bloomin miracle if you DIDN'T have a bit of eastern Med DNA.
.
Why am I bothering, it's like trying to teach calculus to an orangutan?

Post what you 1st quoted months ago which you said was from the Drs report, a reprot you said you have read although it has never been released.

We will then see how you have bit by bit month by month rescinded what you 1st posted as quotes and have since tweaked until it nearly concurs with what the Dr told the paper.

The paper article prints what the Dr said to them and doesn't QUOTE his report BECAUSE his report has never been released.

Now do you still maintain you have read this unreleased report and what you 1st quoted from it is fact?

God Almighty wrote:

Nebs wrote:
Get rid of cash. Make all movements of money electronic.

And why not? Don't suppose you know how the experiment to make a west country town cashless went do you?

It failed miserably.

God Almighty wrote:
"Dr Wilson doesn't say what you quoted". err yes it does, even in the press reports, Perhaps you should try reading them more carefully. Ask someone to help you if that's too hard for you to do.
.
"Travellers are not typical of each other in much the same any members of any community are not typical of each other". Err yes you are, or at least you are more like each other than most other communities as the genetics tell us that you kept yourselves isolated from the main population and as there was never a large population of travellers that means you have a tiny gene pool compared to most populations which is why the Dublin Royal College of Surgeons says you have more congenital defects than the rest of the Irish population. True whether you like it or not.
.
"In the documentary he reports that *shared* Pavee DNA has a strand of DNA that isn't matched outside of the Pavee culture". If you actually knew anything about this subject you would know that everyone in the world has bits of DNA that are not "matched" and they won't be until we have tested the DNA of every other human being on earth. What we can say is that he found a bit of DNA that seems to originate in Turkey but everyone in these fair isles has bits of DNA from the eastern Med from Neolithic farmers and as you lot split from the main Irish population a thousand years or so ago (several thousand years after the Neolithic farmers arrived here) it would be a bloomin miracle if you DIDN'T have a bit of eastern Med DNA.
.
Why am I bothering, it's like trying to teach calculus to an orangutan?

You either genuinely misunderstood or purposely misunderstood what I stated.

I stated SHARED DNA. (even * it for particular note) Not individual DNA.

The Pavee have a shared DNA strand that isn't found anywhere else in the world but within the Pavee culture!

You have indicated that you are Learned in DNA well lets see if you are.

He states that the community shared DNA's NEAREST MATCH is one in Turkey...not that it matches the Turkey DNA strand!

Congenital defects can be birth defects caused by measles or even lack of vitamins.

The report by the Dublin Royal College of Surgeons doesn't say this is because of a " tiny gene pool " again you are caught out lying to denigrate a community! Is there no end to your hate sickness?

You, of course, try to give a certain sinister connotation to the mention of congenital defect as if it was a shameful thing or indicative of all Travellers. Many communities have children born with such defects which cover a massive scale of causation and abnormalities raging from the serious to the unnoticed!

It could just as well mean Travellers have more occurrences of children born with problems caused by measles as anything else or vitmun deficiently caused by life style. many Travellers never being vaccinated,

It might mean Travellers have a higher sufferance of asthma than the Irish community! It is such an open ended subject that could never really be finished with...but what is clear is it is disgusting spinning by you!

The people on here must now be aware how you are trying to take them for idiots with your spin, lies, crazed assumptions and downright evilness!

You really are a sicko!

Nebs wrote:

God Almighty wrote:

Nebs wrote:
Get rid of cash. Make all movements of money electronic.

And why not? Don't suppose you know how the experiment to make a west country town cashless went do you?

It failed miserably.

Why?

So wrong yet again, can't be bothered to put you right cos you never admit you are wrong. Pointless.

God Almighty wrote:
So wrong yet again, can't be bothered to put you right cos you never admit you are wrong. Pointless.

On the subject i have confronted you on i have yet to be wrong or proven wrong. But you have been proven to have lied, twisted, span and misquoted time and again. i have brought you to a stand stil for you to go on anymore you would have to start providing proof of what you say and you cant do that as it is all lies!

Conclusion? You are a hate filled pathological liar who wouldn't know the truth if God gave it to you.

Just look at your user name! That taken with everything else should tell the story of YOU!

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

God Almighty wrote:

Nebs wrote:
Get rid of cash. Make all movements of money electronic.

And why not? Don't suppose you know how the experiment to make a west country town cashless went do you?

It failed miserably.

Why?

I don't know the full reasons. Do you?
People don't like change, for example every pensioner I talk to who can't yet use a computer says they have managed quite well without them, and all those who have learned how to use them say they wonder how they managed without one.
The cashless society will come. Crooks, thieves, drug dealers, benefits cheats, and other fiddlers, the writing is on the wall, make plans to join the human race.

Nebs wrote:

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

God Almighty wrote:

Nebs wrote:
Get rid of cash. Make all movements of money electronic.

And why not? Don't suppose you know how the experiment to make a west country town cashless went do you?

It failed miserably.

Why?

I don't know the full reasons. Do you?
People don't like change, for example every pensioner I talk to who can't yet use a computer says they have managed quite well without them, and all those who have learned how to use them say they wonder how they managed without one.
The cashless society will come. Crooks, thieves, drug dealers, benefits cheats, and other fiddlers, the writing is on the wall, make plans to join the human race.

" The cashless society will come "

Ah now, thats a different thing and something i think is pretty likely....but when it does come it wont be for the rather inane reason of catching "Crooks, thieves, drug dealers, benefits cheats, and other fiddlers"

Although it might be portrayed that way.

Sorry Almighty God, it would seem as though you are portraying yourself as a real numpty feature on this site. Get real!

God Almighty doesn't seem to have any real argument... and when questioned, he doesn't answer. Maybe he doesn't know the answer (that's fine), but don't try to profess the rest of your twaddle.

God Almighty, a couple of your tuppence worth is of total irrelevance to any views on this site.

Hands up who thinks God Almighty and E-Types should get a room and consummate their love?

Nebs wrote:

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

God Almighty wrote:

Nebs wrote:
Get rid of cash. Make all movements of money electronic.

And why not? Don't suppose you know how the experiment to make a west country town cashless went do you?

It failed miserably.

Why?

I don't know the full reasons. Do you?
People don't like change, for example every pensioner I talk to who can't yet use a computer says they have managed quite well without them, and all those who have learned how to use them say they wonder how they managed without one.
The cashless society will come. Crooks, thieves, drug dealers, benefits cheats, and other fiddlers, the writing is on the wall, make plans to join the human race.

No it won't. I worked for a large company that used money cards for the vending machines. You put card in a machine, then put cash in, then you could use the card in any vending machine.

The same system will replace cash, but with people using personal card readers, or more likely their phones and apps like Barclays Pingit. All untraceable.

As for your assertion that it will catch "Crooks, thieves, drug dealers, benefits cheats, and other fiddlers" that's utter rubbish. The current electronic monetary system doesn't catch tax fraudsters and evaders who operate on a scale that costs the UK £70BILLION a year, what makes you think it will catch the 0.5% of fraudulent benefit claimants that costs the UK £1billion a year?

aduksquack wrote:
Hands up who thinks God Almighty and E-Types should get a room and consummate their love?

Unfortunately he follows me around the site lying outrageously and making prejudicial comments and racial slur... and so has to be confronted!

To allow even one of his type to freely do this is, imo, a mistake, for their example would breed such abuse and comments.

Alec Cikes wrote:
Sorry Almighty God, it would seem as though you are portraying yourself as a real numpty feature on this site. Get real!

AC you are an imbecile, you have no idea what you are talking about, again. ET is a traveller who thinks travellers have an exotic ancestry but a recent genetic study by the Royal College of Surgeons and Edinburgh University (the Wilson Cavalleri report) says travellers are just ordinary Irish people who were dispossessed somewhere between 1k and 2k years ago, nothing exotic about that. Trouble is ET doesn't like that cos it contradicts his beliefs so he has been denying the report exists for months. I have even given him links to press reports on the DNA study (one above) but for some reason thats not good enough for him, he is still trying to deny it exists. Can't be bothered to argue with a numpty like that, the man is deranged.
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AC Talking of deranged I'm still waiting to hear more about your ridiculous contention that the tides are higher in the winter because the nights are longer (LMFAO), which is absolutely ridiculous and shows you are another imbecile who has no idea whatsoever of how the tides really work. So come on AC, tell us more about your theory that you made up in your tiny little brain, or do I have to repeat my explanation of how spring tides and neap tides work again?

Just for your benefit AC…
.
AC says … “we lose more light in the evenings after the 15th Aug & the moon's pull will be much stronger. Lie on a beach one evening for a couple of hours as we're approaching Sept, and you'll hear the strong pull. Physics are physics“
.
Reply … Ha ha. And you know nothing whatsoever about physics sunshine! Laughable! I've been out there on the water at all hours of the day and night, I know the sea and how the tides work round here like the back of my hand, and I'm an amateur astronomer to boot, and I can tell you, quite sincerely, that you most definitely ARE off with the fairies (or you have been drinking).
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On 16th Sept we have a peak spring tide due when the high tide will be a tad higher and the low a tad lower. This is because the moon and the sun are both lined up with the earth (new moon) and pulling together (full moon is similar). A week later there will be a Neap tide when the sun and moon will be at 90 degrees to each other (relative to earth) so the pull is not so great so the high tide will be somewhat lower and the low tide will be higher. Got that? This pattern of a two weekly cycle of Spring and Neap tides repeats ad infinitum, nothing whatsoever to do with night and day or seasonality although it is modified by atmospheric pressure. Shall I explain that to you too? LMFAO

aduksquack wrote:

Nebs wrote:

E-Types.. wrote:

Nebs wrote:

God Almighty wrote:

Nebs wrote:
Get rid of cash. Make all movements of money electronic.

And why not? Don't suppose you know how the experiment to make a west country town cashless went do you?

It failed miserably.

Why?

I don't know the full reasons. Do you?
People don't like change, for example every pensioner I talk to who can't yet use a computer says they have managed quite well without them, and all those who have learned how to use them say they wonder how they managed without one.
The cashless society will come. Crooks, thieves, drug dealers, benefits cheats, and other fiddlers, the writing is on the wall, make plans to join the human race.

No it won't. I worked for a large company that used money cards for the vending machines. You put card in a machine, then put cash in, then you could use the card in any vending machine.

The same system will replace cash, but with people using personal card readers, or more likely their phones and apps like Barclays Pingit. All untraceable.

As for your assertion that it will catch "Crooks, thieves, drug dealers, benefits cheats, and other fiddlers" that's utter rubbish. The current electronic monetary system doesn't catch tax fraudsters and evaders who operate on a scale that costs the UK £70BILLION a year, what makes you think it will catch the 0.5% of fraudulent benefit claimants that costs the UK £1billion a year?

I have explained all that in my earlier posts. I also said "I fully accept that it won't solve everything.".
What I didn't say, is what you have posted that I said, "it will catch". I didn't say that. It will certainly HELP catch the crooks etc, but on its own it will not catch them.
I have explained how it will assist detecting benefit fraudsters. I have made no claims about corporate tax fraudsters and evaders, and whilst it may help on a small cash scale it will not solve the problem of that type of fraud, I have never claimed it will, but if it stops some (imo a lot) of small time fraud and theft then it seems like a good thing.
Interesting that you say pingit is untraceable. I don't have pingit but i'd have thought there would be some form of trail to identify where the £10, that arrives in your pingit account, has come from. If it is untraceable how would you know that it is me repaying the £10 that I borrowed from you, or whether it was a gift from someone else, and I would want some proof that I actually sent the £10 to you in case you forget and ask for it again. If it is truly untraceable then I have no proof that I repaid you. Are you sure it is untraceable?

Of course it is traceable like cash flow in any other bank account. Also people like HMRC and Councils etc have full authority to access all details of your bank accounts but they only do so if they are suspicious. Truth is there are mechanisms in place to detect frauds but the relevant organisations seem to lack the manpower or the will to do so. Having said that I suspect that Government are happy for this situation to continue as they can make unsubstantiated claims (all pure guesswork)that unemployed and disabled people etc are defrauding Governement of enormous amounts of cash to gain support for their current war on the unemployed and disabled.

Alec Cikes wrote:
God Almighty, a couple of your tuppence worth is of total irrelevance to any views on this site.

AC if you want to know the truth about how the tides work all you have to do is look at the tide tables (unless you are going to do an ET and deny the tide tables exist and refuse to look at them unless I send you a link, ho ho!).
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The first Sping tides after the 15th Sept reach their peak on the 18th Sept when the high tide is 6.14 metres and the low tide is 0.65 metres. If your childish ideas are correct the tides should continue to get higher after that BUT THEY DON'T.
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The following week the Neap tides reach their peak on 25th Sept with a very low high tide of 4.85m and a low tide of 1.23m, and this pattern of high highs, low lows (Spring tides) and low highs, high lows (Neap tides) continues in a two week cycle ad infinitum regardless of whether it's summer, winter or fall or whether you can see the moon or not. Got that dodo?
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ps where did you get your physics degree cos you should demand your money back! Ha ha!
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I must thank the Echo, until I found this website I never realised how many truly stupid people there are out there. Care in the community has a lot ot answer for.

I'm glad you've got your two tuppence worth off your chest, God Almighty!

Alec Cikes wrote:
I'm glad you've got your two tuppence worth off your chest, God Almighty!

I'm glad you've seen the error of your ways and understand why and how the tides work now. You shouldn't argue with god!

Amen, I'm sure you'll find a 2p coin in your next cracker!

And an admission from you that you jumped to your conclusion without checking any of your facts? Not the sort of thing I would expect from someone who knows about physics.

God Almighty wrote:
And an admission from you that you jumped to your conclusion without checking any of your facts? Not the sort of thing I would expect from someone who knows about physics.

But will it continue "Ad infinitum"? Won't the movement of the moon away from the earth change things, slowly, a long time in the future.

Yes you are right but we are talking timescales that won't affect us, probably won't affect any humans the way we're going. There are other things that affect the tides much more right now, most importantly atmospheric pressure. An extreme high pressure system can literally stop the tide coming in, seen it happen a few times. An extreme low pressure system can suck up a huge shallow 'dome' of water that can raise the tide level by several metres. This is exactly what happened in 1953(?) when a low pressure system swept down the North Sea and hit the east coast at the same time as a high tide. Canvey was flooded and lives were lost on Canvey and, I think, further up the coast (an onshore wind played a part too but wind cannot raise water levels nearly as much as atmospheric pressure). This same combination of events could happen again at any time (almost has several times) and it probably will happen again one day but these are relatively rare events, atmospheric pressure doesn't usually make a lot of difference.

̶T̶w̶o̶

Again you are caught out wilfully LYING!

" a recent genetic study by the Royal College of Surgeons and Edinburgh University (the Wilson Cavalleri report)"

The study isn't complete as the Dr has stated himself hence why it has never been released in its entirety!

'says travellers are just ordinary Irish people who were dispossessed somewhere between 1k and 2k years ago,"

While he says something along these lines in his quotes to the newspapers, he then states he doesn't know WHY or WHEN!
So other than his opinion and belief he has no evidence of what he claims, which is why he states he NEEDS to carry out further research.

We are left with only his beliefs! NO EVIDENCE OR FACTS!

Are beliefs scientific fact? Have they ever been?

Wake up, your prejudice is making you look stupid!


"nothing exotic about that. Trouble is ET doesn't like that cos it contradicts his beliefs so he has been denying the report exists for months."


You dont know my beliefs so how can you say they are contradicted?

"I have even given him links to press reports on the DNA study (one above) but for some reason thats not good enough for him"


You are now calling them press reports whereas before you were stating they were from the actual report (a report not yet released that you stated you had read!) Rather than comments made by the Dr.

Would seem like you are trying to slither out of your lies ie "Dr Wilson said Travellers were low life scum that the Irish kicked out of their society" Has now become "dispossessed"

You take a mans belief and declare it fact while the final report is pending.

Typical or you and your ilk...sick really!

Alec Cikes wrote:
Amen, I'm sure you'll find a 2p coin in your next cracker!

LOL, with his attitude and sickening personality thats the only way he will get near a 'tuppence'

You are an academic moron ET, Drs Wilson and Cavalleri are geneticists, not historians. They DO say quite specifically that you and your kind split from mainstream Irish society between 1k and 2k years ago, and that's about as good as you will get from a DNA analysis of this scale. They only analysed a small sample which is why they use the term "believe", it's not because their genetic analysis is mere belief - the DNA test results are objective not subjective - it's because they would have to analyse thousands more samples to improve their focus and even then they won't be able to say exactly when the split occurred and certainly wouldn't be able to say why, only the historians can answer that. As Wilson etc say, they would like to do more research, which doesn't mean this study isn't finished because it is, it just means they would like to do a new study with a much larger sample to tie their results down even tighter. You have denied this study even exists for months which just proves you are so thick you can't even google so don't blame me if you can't find the full report, which takes a bit more than a simple google. You keep saying I am stupid but you are the one showing yourself up with your playground logic, your endless mistakes and your scientific illiteracy. Btw you promised me an apology if the report was real but you won't apologise will you cos you don't believe you are ever wrong, theres a name for people like you.

I just hope he doesn't try and use it in a parking machine...

God Almighty wrote:
You are an academic moron ET, Drs Wilson and Cavalleri are geneticists, not historians. They DO say quite specifically that you and your kind split from mainstream Irish society between 1k and 2k years ago, and that's about as good as you will get from a DNA analysis of this scale. They only analysed a small sample which is why they use the term "believe", it's not because their genetic analysis is mere belief - the DNA test results are objective not subjective - it's because they would have to analyse thousands more samples to improve their focus and even then they won't be able to say exactly when the split occurred and certainly wouldn't be able to say why, only the historians can answer that. As Wilson etc say, they would like to do more research, which doesn't mean this study isn't finished because it is, it just means they would like to do a new study with a much larger sample to tie their results down even tighter. You have denied this study even exists for months which just proves you are so thick you can't even google so don't blame me if you can't find the full report, which takes a bit more than a simple google. You keep saying I am stupid but you are the one showing yourself up with your playground logic, your endless mistakes and your scientific illiteracy. Btw you promised me an apology if the report was real but you won't apologise will you cos you don't believe you are ever wrong, theres a name for people like you.

I may be a academic moran but i would say you are no better! Unless you are now stating you are academic?

What the doctor does say is

" Travellers are a distinct genetic group as different from the settled Irish as Icelanders are from Norwegians"

he could just as well say about you..

"This nut case separated from the Neanderthal 10 millennia ago" and could easily add "although you wouldn't think it"

The point being we all come from the same line going back ex amount of millennia!


" Travellers have a shared heritage with settled people ( here they do not say irish settled people) but that they separated at some point between 1,000 and 2,000 years ago.

Im sure if he carried out tests in the UK he would be able to say the exact thing. That Travellers were indeed attached to settle people but detached many millennia ago.

" Dr Wilson said he wants to carry out more research to pin down a more accurate date for the split "


This clearly contradicts you comment

" they won't be able to say exactly when the split occurred ."

Who knows what the Dr meant you or him?

You talk as if you know what the Dr meant or didn't mean?

How do you know the study is finished? Does the doctor say so? Why hasn't any full report been released? (besides the one you say you read, which obviously you didn't)

I have not denied any study existed but denied the comments you posted as having appeared in a report, a report you are saying you read which to date havent been released.

Are you in fact now saying this article is the report on the study you were referring to all the time?

"so don't blame me if you can't find the full report"

Has the Dr released a report on the study? I think the answer to that question is NO but please let me know if you disagree with that!

As for an apology Please post the report or a link to it and ill apologise if that report (that has never been released) says what you say it said.


As for playground logic, your logic has been that if minority within a community commits crimes then the whole community are guilty of these crimes!

That isn't even childish logic, it is the logic of an idiot!

It is you who wont admit you have lied about reading a report about this study unless you mean the paper article which isnt a report released by the Dr.

You are twisting and turning like a twisty turny thingamabob...

Ha ha! I am an academic. Fact. And once again you are the one twisting the truth. When I said Dr Wilson would not be able to determine the EXACT date you lot split from the IRISH population that is exactly what I meant for two reasons, firstly because there will not be an exact date as this obviously happened over a period of time, and secondly because DNA tests simply cannot do that, he might be able to narrow the range down but he will never be able to give an exact date. Your bleating about Neanderthals is meaningless nonsense.
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As for your statement: "As for playground logic, your logic has been that if minority within a community commits crimes then the whole community are guilty of these crimes!", no my logic is that you continually twist the facts out of all proportion, just as I have said above. Also my logic refers to my friends who used to live near DF who used to get groups of Travellers wandering into their garden day and night looking for things to steal, which they did often. You lot made their lives a misery, that is a fact.
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AS for Wilsons report, you said it didn't exist and now you have had to admit it does, but still no apology. More twisting ET? I know exactly how to get the original report but I'm not telling you until you have made a real fool of yourself, once again. If you are so smart yopu find it, but you won't will you ET because you don't have the smarts to work it out, ha ha ha!

God Almighty wrote:
Ha ha! I am an academic. Fact. And once again you are the one twisting the truth. When I said Dr Wilson would not be able to determine the EXACT date you lot split from the IRISH population that is exactly what I meant for two reasons, firstly because there will not be an exact date as this obviously happened over a period of time, and secondly because DNA tests simply cannot do that, he might be able to narrow the range down but he will never be able to give an exact date. Your bleating about Neanderthals is meaningless nonsense.
.
As for your statement: "As for playground logic, your logic has been that if minority within a community commits crimes then the whole community are guilty of these crimes!", no my logic is that you continually twist the facts out of all proportion, just as I have said above. Also my logic refers to my friends who used to live near DF who used to get groups of Travellers wandering into their garden day and night looking for things to steal, which they did often. You lot made their lives a misery, that is a fact.
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AS for Wilsons report, you said it didn't exist and now you have had to admit it does, but still no apology. More twisting ET? I know exactly how to get the original report but I'm not telling you until you have made a real fool of yourself, once again. If you are so smart yopu find it, but you won't will you ET because you don't have the smarts to work it out, ha ha ha!

ACADEMIC! YOU?

You are no such thing and your level of posting on here showS that clear

ANOTHER BARE-FACED LIE!

The news article you, in your academic mode, describe as a report rather than a mention of a study itself says , and i quote;

" Dr Wilson said he wants to carry out more research to pin down a more accurate date for the split "

You posted

" they won't be able to say exactly when the split occurred ."

Oh dear you cling to a word to try rwist out of your stupidity!

"exactly" you state, its obvious you to try undermine the Dr who you then reply on for the rest of your contention!

Yet thats what they are researching to try do? provide a more telling date! Give a more accurate reading! It would seem you are saying you know more then they! FANTASIST

In the way you say you have read the report, a report that hasn't been released! LIAR!

All cultures split from each other at different times over the history of mankind even those closest to some than others

The Dr states this Traveller /settler one MIGHT of been over one or two millenniums ago! You state he cant give exact dates then he might be way out on this might he not?

It could be 2 and a half millenniums ago, because thats when the Celts arrived in Ireland! He doesn't know do you! Pavees have their beliefs that fits right up to this time! Want to know what it is?

You mention 1 or 2 millenniums as if it was the other day. Fool!

As a fellow academic why havent you

A, contacted Dr Wilson to ask why he hasn't produced a report on his study

B, Why havent you produced the report you say you read, which seems to have changed remarkably in the last few months?

You logic has been seen for all to see when you make mention of some of the crimes committed by travellers.

Your contention was all Travellers were guilty because some where. You were asked if this applied to the wider community and you as usual ignored that question( many times)

Now you accuse me of twisting your logic yet it was you that provided it and in fact provide proof of what i contened again right after you deny it ( crackpot)

" Also my logic refers to my friends who used to live near DF who used to get groups of Travellers wandering into their garden day and night looking for things to steal, which they did often. You lot made their lives a misery,"

So because some Travellers did this all Travellers are guilty of it! This is a example of your stupid logic that i referred to and which you denied! LOL. perhaps you dont realise that one part of you is posting contradiction to the other side of you..may be you're twins but you dont know it LOL.

I do not for one moment believe you have friends near DF! You have been exposed as a liar time and again on these threads!

But lets just ask, did these friends say which Travellers came into their gardens? Romany or Pavee?

I said a report didn't exist and the fact one has never been released would seem to bear that out.

I also made it clear that if one did exist it wouldn't exist as you reported it did

" the report said Travellers were only scum low irish outcasts" This has now become "dispossessed" which is now in line with the quotes from the news paper! Bu you have been changing your quotes from the 'report' quite a lot.

Its clear the 'report" you were pretending you had read from the outset was in fact a newspaper article with some quotes from the Dr who had carried out a study and was continuing to research the matter. Even in the paper article there was no quotes or mention of a REPORT!

Strange that you cant diffiate between a quote about a study and a report made on a study!

And you with a genius IQ and a academic to boot!

Ahhh, now you say you can get the real report, one that hasn't been released, perhaps from your colleagues in the IQ genius club you belong to, or the most respected profession in the country or perhaps the super duper royal society you are a member of? Or perhaps out of your own feeble brain!

BTW how can a person, who has asked time and time again for you to produce the report to no avail, and who then comes to the understandable conclusion you cannot produce the report be seen as a fool.

You stated something, i asked you to produce evidence of what you stated, instead you time and again produced a series of quotes from the doctor and a newspaper article but no report. Now you say you have the report...well post it up or the link. It goes to show that you have been lying all this and being deceitful when you posted up the Irish examiner article as the link to the report! You knew it wasnt but demanded it was and then abused me for not finding the report from it, when in fact there is no link via the paper article!

What does this say about you? One word

DISTURBED!

BTW no one lese has been able to find it! It would seem only you have seen it!

Oh dear, oh dear oh lor..hahahahahaha

Yawn, Change the record ET, you consistently get everything wrong, you twist the facts, misquote me etc. You are one seriously deranged individual, can't be bothered to reply to your moronic rants.

Idiot, you get everything wrong. I mention that I have a boat, you say I have claimed to have a horse and a plane! Silly. I mention that I have been to Uni a FEW times and you say twice. I called University "college" cos that's what we called it in my day (never heard of Corpus Christi college, Balliol college, Magdalen college, all part of Oxford Uni?) and you say I'm wrong (not!), and where are the quotation marks around my "quotes" from the Wilson study? There aren't any cos I was paraphrasing. Btw Wilsons work was also reported in more detail in the scientific press but I bet you haven't found that either. Keep on making a fool of yourself, I'll be expecting the apology in the fullness of time. Fool.

God Almighty wrote:
Yawn, Change the record ET, you consistently get everything wrong, you twist the facts, misquote me etc. You are one seriously deranged individual, can't be bothered to reply to your moronic rants.

So you knew all the time when you were giving the link to the "report' that it wasn't the report.. but you know where the report is but not going to tell us? LOL Loony!

God Almighty wrote:
Idiot, you get everything wrong. I mention that I have a boat, you say I have claimed to have a horse and a plane! Silly. I mention that I have been to Uni a FEW times and you say twice. I called University "college" cos that's what we called it in my day (never heard of Corpus Christi college, Balliol college, Magdalen college, all part of Oxford Uni?) and you say I'm wrong (not!), and where are the quotation marks around my "quotes" from the Wilson study? There aren't any cos I was paraphrasing. Btw Wilsons work was also reported in more detail in the scientific press but I bet you haven't found that either. Keep on making a fool of yourself, I'll be expecting the apology in the fullness of time. Fool.

Ahhh, at long last you admit that what you posted, pretending it was contained in the Drs report, is actually not quotes but just you paraphrasing...in accordance to your prejudice!

WOW doesn't that give people a good insight to your personality...ie you are a pathological liar!

You know where the report is yet havent linked to it...causing all this confusion...because you want me to Keep on making a fool" of myself! LOL

I make a fool of myself by asking you to provide the link to the report or the actual report itself (a report others on these threads have stated hasn't been released as yet)

Isn't it more likely that its you making a fool of yourself?


"Btw Wilsons work was also reported in more detail in the scientific press but I bet you haven't found that either."

You post "work" by that do you mean report? Are you stating the REPORT in question has been posted in its entirety in the "scientific press" or is this more comments on the study that you have for months been representing as the actual report!


It is clear you have been caught out LYING in regards to reading the report (oh how you search the internet in vain for it lol)

LYING in trying to cover up this LIE and now you are calling the LIES paraphrasing! OMGADDDDDDD! LOL

I bet when you were in college you were the only member of "The total bullCRAP club"

"Ahhh, at long last you admit that what you posted, pretending it was contained in the Drs report, is actually not quotes but just you paraphrasing...in accordance to your prejudice! WOW doesn't that give people a good insight to your personality...ie you are a pathological liar!
.
There is something wrong with you ET, this is hardly the place for long complicated technical passages from an academic report, and there is nothing wrong with pararphrasing, normal humans paraphrase things every day, doesn't mean they are untrue and in this case they are not. Your constant offensive rudeness on the other hand is wholly unacceptable, not that I'd expect you to understand that. As I said before, you get everything wrong but you still believe in your own infallibility. Unbelievable.

God Almighty wrote:
"Ahhh, at long last you admit that what you posted, pretending it was contained in the Drs report, is actually not quotes but just you paraphrasing...in accordance to your prejudice! WOW doesn't that give people a good insight to your personality...ie you are a pathological liar!
.
There is something wrong with you ET, this is hardly the place for long complicated technical passages from an academic report, and there is nothing wrong with pararphrasing, normal humans paraphrase things every day, doesn't mean they are untrue and in this case they are not. Your constant offensive rudeness on the other hand is wholly unacceptable, not that I'd expect you to understand that. As I said before, you get everything wrong but you still believe in your own infallibility. Unbelievable.

Oh is see! You cant put up the report because people on here wouldn't understand it.. but you of course can! Hmm..what a picture you are!

Maybe you could paraphrase it for us?

Oh no lets not ask you to do that!, we have seen the results of your "paraphrasing"

But heres an out of the box idea...why dont you just put the link up?

I know, your right, preposterous idea!

You state the report says Travellers are "low life Irish scum outcast" which you have recently changed to "dispossessed people"...

Hmm, seems your paraphrasing gets milder the more people who read the link to the comments on the study ( not the report)

Btw is this why you deceived people into thinking the link you gave to the newspaper article was actually the link to the report...to save them having
brain ache?

You complain of my rudeness when for 5 months you have been racially abusing, lying about, and misrepresenting my community and indeed society.

I would say there is no doubt, taking everything into consideration, that you are rather 'indisposed'

I cant see how asking for you to provide a link to a report is such a strange request...but seems you do.

God Almighty wrote:
"Ahhh, at long last you admit that what you posted, pretending it was contained in the Drs report, is actually not quotes but just you paraphrasing...in accordance to your prejudice! WOW doesn't that give people a good insight to your personality...ie you are a pathological liar!
.
There is something wrong with you ET, this is hardly the place for long complicated technical passages from an academic report, and there is nothing wrong with pararphrasing, normal humans paraphrase things every day, doesn't mean they are untrue and in this case they are not. Your constant offensive rudeness on the other hand is wholly unacceptable, not that I'd expect you to understand that. As I said before, you get everything wrong but you still believe in your own infallibility. Unbelievable.

You might be aware now that stropmag/Gina the weaner 'two' of the more disturbed of the anti-Travellers on these threads has been using multiple accounts to use racial abuse (all while pretending to be black) he has had at least 8 accounts while doing this and was exposed on a thread where he stupidly replied for one alter ego using the another alter ego and then admitted he had be using another name.

This i believe is the sort of disturbed people you and users like you with your racial abuse and racial slurs have incited to carry out their vile illegal/unlawful attacks...you are just as guilty as they!

Rubbish, I only tell it like it is and I agree with Wilson and the Irish Govt that you are not a different race, different something but not a different race. And a little bird tells me you are the one who has been warned, not to be so abusive, true?

Dr Wilson mentions nothing about race in his comments to the newspaper!

A newspaper that ran an article that you pretended was the actual report!

The Irish Government also make no remark or stance on race! But balk against accepting the Pavee as a different culture and as a ethnic minority ( for obvious reasons)
something which Dr Wilson does accept and says is the case!

So it would seem you agree with a stance on a thing that both Dr Wilson and The Irish Government have not made any reference to, yet state they have, while ignoring Dr Wilsons stance on the different culture! You agree with Dr Wilson in something he didn't say while disagreeing with something he did say!

Put up the link to the report and this will all be clear im sure.

No i wasn't warned about being abusive. Can you reveal where you got this faulty information from?

Perhaps the Wilson report?

You are aware that there was a disturbed individual on the threads and he had many user names, using racial abuse, while supporting his other alto egos in do in the same! At least 8 names he was using to do this!

It would seem in regards to the abuse you and other have used in referring to Travellers, It is actually only carried out by a small number, the nut case being at least eight of those!

Lets see how your contact(s) on this unethical paper get you out of any legal action taken against you.

Won't happen dodo.

Truth Will Prevail wrote:
Won't happen dodo.

LOL its already happening...watch this space.

Yeah yeah yeah, all the Police I know are as sick of the way you ignore the laws you don't like and manipulate the laws you do like when it suits you as the rest of us, and that's straight from the horses mouth. Any bets ETs empty threats won't come to anything? Like I said before you should be a comedian ET.

Ill bet you! what do you want to bet?

The die is cast!

"horses mouth" Wrong end i would think...LOL