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Great grammar debate rumbles on

7:55am Tuesday 18th March 2008

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By John Geoghegan »

SOUTHEND'S grammar schools are among the best in the country. The schools are lauded every year for their impressive A-level and GCSE results, which guarantee their pupils a place at some of the best universities in the UK.

It's easy to understand why. Grammar schools cream off the brightest, most able pupils from children at primary schools who take their 11-plus exam.

This leaves the borough's comprehensive schools with the challenges of those who fail, or do not take, the 11-plus.

So how do comprehensive schools compete? How do they perform compared with grammar or religious schools, which choose pupils on the basis of ability?

Southend councillors have spent the past two years considering these very points.

A study by the council's children and young people's scrutiny committee found the achievements of pupils at non-selective schools was in line with pupils at similar schools nationally.

It also discovered the gap in progress between the town's selective and non-selective schools was narrowing.

Problems identified by the committee for comprehensive pupils were deprivation, low self-esteem and aspirations, poor attendance and underachievement.

But for some headteachers, the report does not go far enough, because, they say, the council has avoided saying the selection system itself is a problem.

Headteachers who were interviewed for the report included John Duprey of Belfairs School in Leigh, Jean Alder of Futures College, Denise Allen of Chase High School, in Prittlewell, and Sue Murphy of Shoeburyness High School.

Mr Duprey said: "They didn't come up with the idea of scrapping the selective system, which would cure the problems non-selective schools face overnight."

Instead, the report has called for a more vocational, skills-based curriculum designed to help youngsters find new jobs. Substantial building work is to be carried out at Chase, Futures and Belfairs to improve facilties there.

It also recommends trying to attract good teachers to the town and to encourage the Government to pilot new initiatives here to bring extra funding to the council.

Sally Carr, councillor responsible for education, said: "I think the report showed Southend works well with a broad choice of different schools.

"I know some heads aren't happy the most academic pupils are creamed off, but it shows how successful young people can be wherever they attend. I've always thought what's best is an appropriate education for all pupils. The recent key stage three results show children in non-selective schools do achieve well."

Head says youngsters from poor families are suffering

THE selection process itself is the biggest barrier to improving non-selective schools.

That is the opinion of John Duprey, headteacher of Belfairs High School, Leigh.

He believes pupils who fail their 11-plus feel rejected and suffer low self-esteem and ambition.

He said: "The schools system in Southend selects according to ability and research has established they also select socially as well.

"Nowadays, the tests are taken in a special centre on a designated Saturday. For children from poorer backgrounds whose parents are working, that won't happen."

The non-selective schools were left with a higher concentration of children from impoverished backgrounds, often with emotional and behavioural problems, Mr Duprey argued.

He said: "Not only do we put a lot of investment in supporting our children emotionally and academically, you also have to support their family to a point as well.

"Often, the pupil's domestic set up is disfunctional and the school is the most functional part of their life."

Mr Duprey stressed the need to celebrate the achievements and successes of these children as much as possible to counteract their feelings of rejection and failure.

He added: "Often, youngsters here believe they're second best, even when they do really well."

Ditching grammars would be a mistake

However, a grammar school headteacher has defended the selection system in Southend.

Andrew Baker, head of Westcliff High School for Boys in Kenilworth Gardens, said it would be "a great mistake" to get rid of it.

He said: "In comparison to other schools in the country, the performance of all Southend schools scores very highly indeed.

"I think the system in Southend is one that is known to the local community and wanted by them. It is secure and has deep historical roots here.

"It would be a great mistake to jettison anything that's working as well as that."

Mr Baker added the good performance of some non-selective schools, such as Belfairs High School, Eastwood School and Shoeburyness High School, showed all pupils benefited from the current system.

The strong progress of Belfairs pupils between Key Stages 2 (aged seven to 11) and Key Stage 4 (up to GCSE) - which was better than the improvements made by many grammar pupils - was used by Mr Baker as evidence of this.

He said: "If you look at the system, it seems to be performing very well.

"The good performance of some non-selective schools over the past three years reflects very creditably upon them."

He said that grammar and non-selective schools frequently collaborate and pool resources, such as exchanges between staff and sharing teaching methods.

He added: "The selective and non-selective schools in Southend work very closely together and we have extremely good relations. if we continue to co-operate, these improvements can be sustained."

Your Say YourEcho

PETE, westcliff says...
8:55pm Mon 17 Mar 08

LEAVE OUR GRAMMAR SCHOOLS ALONE GORDON mcBROWN !!

Mike Paterson, Bowers Gifford says...
8:07am Tue 18 Mar 08

The goal of our education system should be to educate every child to the limit of their ability in areas in which they excel (whether that is academic, artistic, sporting etc.), to allow everybody to contribute and benefit from working and living in the UK.

To do this, it is important to stream classes and subjects otherwise the classes will have to move too slowly for the high achievers (leaving them bored and poorly educated) or too fast for the under achievers (leaving them frustrated and poorly educated.

Do we want our schools to churn out the lowest common denominator, or do we want to educate all to the best of their ability? If it is the latter, then streaming (and selective schooling) must continue, if it is the latter, then God help Great Britain!

Dan, North Leigh says...
9:18am Tue 18 Mar 08

If grammar schools were done away with and everyone educated at comprehensives, I think you'd see an overall reduction in pupils attaining the very highest grades, as the schools would have to provide a learning environment for too many ability levels at once. Grammar schools should be retained and more streams of ability put in below them (especially vocational training) in order to maximise the skills of eac level of pupil. This is what's done in Germany and their education system is far better than the UK's.

Dave, Southend says...
9:25am Tue 18 Mar 08

PETE wrote:
LEAVE OUR GRAMMAR SCHOOLS ALONE GORDON mcBROWN !!
Grow up and read the article.

If you actually bothered to read the story would know that in this case the criticism of the grammar schools was coming from local headteachers, not government.

Biffo123, Wickford says...
9:48am Tue 18 Mar 08

I don't know why these headmasters think they could get the same results with the same pupils.
The atmosphere in these selection schools is different. It is all about self-fulfilment, attaining the best you can. It's not just exam results, but that is one way it shows.
Why is it that the losers want to scrap the success of others? These specious arguments are pathetic.
My daughter attended a comp, and not a brilliant one either, but her attitude got her reasonable GCSEs, despite the school rather than because of it (we had to pay for private tuition in English because the standard of teaching was so dreadful)and then a job in a bank in London and at 17 she is having the time of her life, meeting the public, learning about office politics, business principles and so on. The school made little difference to her and her desire for success... but look at the attitude of the kids she has left behind in Wickford. Very nice, most of them, but with hardly a qualification between them.

Paul Hiscock, says...
9:59am Tue 18 Mar 08

Schools are only good for one thing.

Getting good exam results.

Other than that they serve no purpose.

Your first job relies on what grades you've got but after that it's the experience you've gained that counts.

Some children will never be any good academically but that doesn't mean they are useless. I believe some are good with their hands and others with their minds. There's no shame in having a blue collar profession but it is rather looked down upon in our country.

There isn't enough emphasis on educating children to learn a trade these days.

Unless you count media studies and sports psychology. Hardly what I'd call trades as most people studying those end up in call centres anyway for the rest of their lives.

Even the French are starting to realise that a lot of what is being taught in their schools is unrealistic for today's world. They have a problem where a lot of students want to study psychology and disregard "proper" sciences.

They then become unemployable because the country needs skilled workers and not a nation of shrinks.

The same is happening in our country.

Comprehensive schools just don't work.

Even Labour sends their children to grammar or private schools while expecting everyone else to suffer Comprehensives.

Says it all really.

Ian G, Southend says...
11:41am Tue 18 Mar 08

Sally Carr, councillor responsible for education, said: "I think the report showed Southend works well with a broad choice of different schools.


No! The choice under most of Sally Carr's time in charge of education has been 'pass the 11 plus or go to a failing school'.

I can't see where choice comes into it really.

cheeky monkey, up a tree says...
12:43pm Tue 18 Mar 08

I went to a gramer skool and I fink it were ace.

I remember fondly the lads at Eastwood and Belfairs trying to pull me off my bike as I cycled home head filled with the wondrous teachings, of science, the classics and other interesing stuff.

They never caught me though I was too fast - desperate to get back and watch Thundercats you see.

Scum, lowlife scum.

Horace Wimpole, Little Futtock says...
1:07pm Tue 18 Mar 08

No! The choice under most of Sally Carr's time in charge of education has been 'pass the 11 plus or go to a failing school'.

I can't see where choice comes into it really.
What nonsense. Visit a few inner-city schools elsewhere in the UK, and then try telling us that Southend's non-grammar schools are falling short.

In relative terms, education in the borough is pretty da mn good (well, Saaafend has to have something going for it eh).

Phil, southend says...
1:10pm Tue 18 Mar 08

Sally Carr says young people can be successful wherever they go to school so why not send everyone to comprehensives?

Winkle Pikewits, Basildon Deux Eglises says...
1:28pm Tue 18 Mar 08

Phil wrote:
Sally Carr says young people can be successful wherever they go to school so why not send everyone to comprehensives?
Because Sally Carr is an idiot?

Firestorm, Southend says...
2:03pm Tue 18 Mar 08

Grammar schools are still selecting from the well off sections of society. It is still better education for those who can afford it. Some primary schools are coaching kids for their 11 plus for several years and many parents are paying for their little darlings to be privately taught to give them a better chance. It doesnot give them a better chance, there will be many more intelligent kids who don't get the private tuition in how to pass the exam who are being deprived of the better teachers.

grammar schools attract the better teachers, yet the kids who need the better teachers are in the comprehensive schools. If the child is good enough he will excel what ever the school, its the ones who need that bit more who should be getting the preferential treatment

Horace Wimpole, Little Futtock says...
2:22pm Tue 18 Mar 08

Grammar schools are still selecting from the well off sections of society. It is still better education for those who can afford it.
Oh well, them's the breaks eh.

On a more serious note, that's a very simplistic "blame culture" excuse.

if people want a good education (grammar or not), they will get it. As ever, it's mainly down to the parents.

I attended grammar school with plenty of lads from the less well-off sections of society—indeed, Westcliff High School for Boys (for example) has a large intake from places like Dagenham, Barking, etc., and I am willing to bet that many of these boys don't come from minted households.

if you want to get on in life, you can, within reason. It all comes down to your attitude, your work ethic, and the support you get from family and friends. And there's the rub: too many people play the victim nowadays.

One thing I agree with in your point is the nature of the 11+ exam itself. It used to be an IQ-style test, but now even the brightest kids benefit from coaching to get through it.

So, by all means reform the 11+. But don't ban Grammars.

avid fan, nowhere near says...
2:23pm Tue 18 Mar 08

Sally obviously spent too much time ducking behind the bikesheds when she should have been in lessons. Southend has schools to be proud of. Decades ago, failing the 11+ had a stigma attached which no longer exists. Having said that I still consider most Belfairs pupils to be pikey scum...

Ali, Essex says...
2:27pm Tue 18 Mar 08

I had the misfortune of going to a comprehensive in Southend and then went to Westcliff Girls for the 6th form. I got into Westcliff because I had good grades (how did I manage this at a comprehensive *shock horror*) because i worked bloody hard that's how! it doesn't matter what school you go to if you work hard you get good grades. Subsequently I worked hard to get into University. There were people at Westcliff from really poor backgrounds, but guess what - they were intelligent enough to go to Westcliff - so that arguement doesn't ring true.
If you put smart kids in a class with less smart kids what's the teacher going to do? Teach at the level of the smart kids or the level of the less smart kids! Their going to bring the level down - that's what!!!
Life is a competition and the sooner these namby-pamby, left wingers appreciate this the better.
As for this comment "He believes pupils who fail their 11-plus feel rejected and suffer low self-esteem and ambition" -guess what? you feel like that in life! You may not get a job you go for - but thats competition!

Anon, Basildon says...
3:35pm Tue 18 Mar 08

I suggest that you ask Mr Duprey which school his children attended!

Dave, Southend says...
3:57pm Tue 18 Mar 08

Horace Wimpole wrote:
No! The choice under most of Sally Carr's time in charge of education has been 'pass the 11 plus or go to a failing school'.

I can't see where choice comes into it really.
What nonsense. Visit a few inner-city schools elsewhere in the UK, and then try telling us that Southend's non-grammar schools are falling short.

In relative terms, education in the borough is pretty da mn good (well, Saaafend has to have something going for it eh).
No. Thorpe Bay school was in special measures for longer than any school in the country, inner-city or not. At one stage Southend had three secondary schools officially classed as failing.

You're right, Southend as a whole isn't an especially deprived area, so there no excuse.

Steve, Southchurch says...
4:48pm Tue 18 Mar 08

This is always a tough one. As was pointed out very early on in the argument, the standard of education in grammar schools should be the norm, not an exception.

The simple truth IS that grammar school pupils are the only pupils receiving a high standard of education in Southend.
Grammar schools have very good results, but obviously they have the advantage of having the better pupils. Any teacher should be able to take that stream of pupils and get them decent grades. How good would they be if they were given the middle sets?

But, regardless of that there is also a learning / work ethic at grammar schools that simply does not exist at the Comprehensive schools. Generally speaking the pupils are focussed learners from a family with a good learning and work ethos.

Some pupils at Comps are the same and do want to work, but their opportunities are extremely limited.

Our children go to CJC, and they report that the teachers are unable to teach. The children run that school, not the teachers. The head is so weak that the children ridicule him when he walks through the playground - can you imagine that happening at Southend High? Not for a second; they'd boot you out.

In addition, our children are not even given text books at CJC. We tried to set our son some homework as his teachers had given up setting any, and we had a real struggle to find anything as he's not allowed to keep the text books - what a joke.

Basically, you can overcome the system and come out of a Southend Comprehensive school with a decent education, but you are pretty much on your own. The child will have to have the will to learn and need the support of their parents.

The school is just a base.

But the Belfairs head is right. I had my education in Benfleet where the effects of those being whisked off to grammar school was somewhat limited. And the standard of education I got at Appleton was excellent. The teachers and the pupils were all hard working and everyone, even my friends in the bottom sets, were determined to do their very best.

You knew if you worked hard you could move up the sets and learn even more, and aim for better grades.

At the Southend Comps I think everyone has really given up. The pupils have given up, and the teachers have given up on them.

pete, westcliff says...
6:18pm Tue 18 Mar 08

Dave wrote:
<b>
PETE wrote:
LEAVE OUR GRAMMAR SCHOOLS ALONE GORDON mcBROWN !!
Grow up and read the article.

If you actually bothered to read the story would know that in this case the criticism of the grammar schools was coming from local headteachers, not government.</b>
that was gordon mcbrown the headmaster, not the scottish PM who robs the english to pay for scotland and wants to destroy all decent english institutions like grammar schools as he continues to ravage england and everything english.

parent, essex says...
6:22pm Tue 18 Mar 08

Please note, those of us who choose to pay for our childrens education are not all wealthy, some people take on extra work to give our children the best opportunities. It infuriates me when people suggest only rich children attend independent schools. Green eyed monster rearing his ugl head perhaps?

Nigel, Billericay says...
8:15pm Tue 18 Mar 08

I cannot allow Mr Dupree's ludicrous assertion that "scrapping the selective system would cure the problems non-selective schools face overnight" to go unchallenged.
I may have missed something, but I have not noticed a mass exodus from Southend and Essex to those areas which have a fully non-selective system, such as the London boroughs for example. Why did the likes of Harriet Harman, Diane Abbott, and Tony Blair no less, opt out of their local comprehensives?
It is a sad reflection on the state of our education system that instead of trying to improve the general standard of education, some head teachers, eagerly supported by the still active extreme left wing which has done so much to destroy our education system and has blighted the prosects of millions of children since the 1960s, now wants to destroy the few remaining schools of proven excellence, yet has nothing to put in their place.
My parents earned far less than an average wage when I was young, but I was able to go to a grammar school, because grammar schools selected on merit, regardless of class, creed or wealth. They still do.
Surely, this is socialism at its best.
Southend should be proud of its magnificent grammar schools, which are the jewel in its crown, not seeking to destroy them.

Silky, Rayleigh says...
8:24pm Tue 18 Mar 08

Pete from westcliff wrote :- (that was gordon mcbrown the headmaster, not the scottish PM who robs the english to pay for scotland and wants to destroy all decent english institutions like grammar schools as he continues to ravage england and everything english.) I think you need to get out more Pete. The only chance GB has of being re-elected is if he sucks up to England. That's why he is looking at changing the Barnett Formula. Incidentally Oxford Economics, a highly respected financial research institution attached to Oxford University has produced figures which states that Scotland pays for itself and returns just as much dosh to the Westminster Government as it gets and that includes the extra £1600 allowance per person. Don't suppose you know that London gets the highest allowance per person in mainland UK either. And I support the English Democrats but tripe like yours puts me right off.

M Kemp, Leigh on Sea says...
9:32pm Tue 18 Mar 08

The reality of the 11+ system is that a high percentage of grammar school attendees have been privately tutored and/or privately educated. It is NOT a test anymore of pure academic ability regardless of background and is NOT equal opportunity to all children. It is a divisive and damaging system to both the educational community and to many quote bright, able childrenquote who may not have access to the support required to quote passquote[/quote. This fact has not been acknowledged or addressed by the report.

Stewart, Hadleigh says...
9:46pm Tue 18 Mar 08

Anyone who thinks the 11+ is fair/right must be stupid - WAKE UP

Nigel, Billericay says...
9:50pm Tue 18 Mar 08

M Kemp wrote:
The reality of the 11+ system is that a high percentage of grammar school attendees have been privately tutored and/or privately educated. It is NOT a test anymore of pure academic ability regardless of background and is NOT equal opportunity to all children. It is a divisive and damaging system to both the educational community and to many quote bright, able childrenquote who may not have access to the support required to quote passquote The fact that children have to be tutored to prepare for the 11+ is because the standard of education at primary school level is now so abysmal, and is as a direct result of the tragic decision to abolish grammar schools in the 1960s, which is Labour's single most destructive and vindictive act, and one for which they will never be forgiven. When I took my 11+, I never even knew that I was taking it.
What do you propose in place of grammar schools? We have been waiting for an answer for 40 years and no one has come up with anything other than comprehensives, which are basically secondary moderns by another name. There has to be appropriate education for the most able, and how can comprehensives provide it unless the children are streamed and setted for all subjects? Surely, this is more divisive than providing separate schools.
Bog standard comprehensives have manifestly failed and are continuing to fail our children, and are not the answer.
Unless we allow our most able children to fully realise their potential, we will slip yet further behind the rest of the western world with disastrous consequences for everyone.
As I said in a previous post, we need to improve education generally, and you do not do that by closing the best schools.
I recall that when the value-added tables were first produced a few years ago, before Labour fiddled the figures as they do now, the top school in the country for improving 11-14 year olds was my old school, Southend High for Boys!

Judith Smith, Westcliff says...
7:28am Wed 19 Mar 08

As the parent of 2 children who are atending the Westcliff High Schools and 1 who attended Belfairs, I can tell you that the difference between the schools is ethos and expectations. Although all of the children are at the same level of intellegence (bright but not super clever) I feel that the non-selective schools are not demading enough from the children. The selective schools have their share of problem pupils just like the rest of society but they manage to contan the problem effectively. I also feel that the politics of some primary schools holds back some local children from being able to pass the 11+. It is better for a primary school to have high SATS rates that it is to have children pass the 11+. I always say that the kids passed there 11+ DESPITE the school ad not because of it. And anyway, what's wrong with my children getting the best start in life with an excellent education? ALL local schools should aspire to be as good and not just pass the buck at their own failings.

Judith Smith, Westcliff says...
7:38am Wed 19 Mar 08

Just a follow up note to M. Kemp:- We are not rich or clever and my kids were NOT tutored privately, I took the trouble to help them for over a year before the test (and so did countless other local parents). I also 'tutored' other local children for free and helped them gain places at the grammer schools. If you want it hard enough you will find a way.

michael teenans, says...
8:09am Wed 19 Mar 08

I would like to ask mr wimpole when were you last at school? obviously you went to a grammar school. the standards of education outside of the grammar stream are appaling in southend. the root of good education is good teaching, and unfortunatly good teachers are hard to come by unless your school has excellent funding,which most outside the grammar stream just do not have.

Horace Wimpole, Little Futtock says...
9:10am Wed 19 Mar 08

michael teenans wrote:
I would like to ask mr wimpole when were you last at school? obviously you went to a grammar school. the standards of education outside of the grammar stream are appaling in southend. the root of good education is good teaching, and unfortunatly good teachers are hard to come by unless your school has excellent funding,which most outside the grammar stream just do not have.
I left school in 1991 and I went to both a grammar school and a middle school.

The best teachers I came across were not at the grammar school. In fact, much of the teaching I had at grammar school can only be described as poor.

I got my good results through some natural ability, hard work, and an ethos instilled in me (a) by my parents and (b) by my early school experiences.

To describe non-grammar schools in Saaaarfend as being "appalling" across the board is a gross generalisation, and simply not true.

I accept that education in this area needs to be improved, but it's not a one-way street, and it's certainly not achieved by getting rid of grammar schools. People need a good dose of reality: (1) education is the responsibility of all, not just teachers and (2) different kids have different abilities.

Schools like Cecil Jones have ended up how they are because there is no respect for the teaching profession, and no buy-in from many of the parents. For every good parent like "Steve in Southchurch" there are a dozen scum-sucking chavs.

History has also played a part: I don't believe the teaching profession has ever recovered from the damaging strikes in the 80s. They really did themselves a lot of harm then.

Winkle Pikewits, basildon Deux Eglises says...
9:17am Wed 19 Mar 08

good teachers are hard to come by unless your school has excellent funding,which most outside the grammar stream just do not have.
how do you work that out? I see grammar schools seeking to raise a lot of money from parents, ex-pupils and all that... but that's basically cos they don't get enough money from central government (just like the other schools in the area). on the flipside, i then see places like Deanes and Belfairs, which have had / are undergoing massive building development program mes. so wherte did the money com for that?

Neil Faulkner, Westcliff says...
9:18am Wed 19 Mar 08

michael teenans wrote:
I would like to ask mr wimpole when were you last at school? obviously you went to a grammar school. the standards of education outside of the grammar stream are appaling in southend. the root of good education is good teaching, and unfortunatly good teachers are hard to come by unless your school has excellent funding,which most outside the grammar stream just do not have.
Why does Mr Teenans think that grammer schools have more funding than comprehensives? I understand that ALL of the selective schools in Southend are funded by the LA. Where does he get the idea from that grammer schools are alloted more than the comprehensives?

Ben, Westcliff says...
9:28am Wed 19 Mar 08

I would like to ask mr wimpole when were you last at school?
What's that got to do with everything? Do you mean to say that only those with current school experience can have a say? When were you last at school then?

For all you know, "Horace" has kids at school or could even be a teacher ... so how is your question relevant to the debate?

As for funding, Mr Faulkner hits the nail on the head. Why do you think grammar schools get more money that comprehensives? Given the current administration's apathy towards grammars, I wouldn't be surprised if the opposite was more likely.

Horace Wimpole, Little Futtock says...
9:45am Wed 19 Mar 08

The fact that children have to be tutored to prepare for the 11+ is because the standard of education at primary school level is now so abysmal
WRONG. Kids often need tutoring because most of them haven't done three hours of maths, literacy and verbal reasoning exams before. The 11+ is NOT the test it was in our day, please try and remember that.

Paul Hiscock, says...
11:03am Wed 19 Mar 08

M Kemp wrote:
The reality of the 11+ system is that a high percentage of grammar school attendees have been privately tutored and/or privately educated. It is NOT a test anymore of pure academic ability regardless of background and is NOT equal opportunity to all children. It is a divisive and damaging system to both the educational community and to many quote bright, able childrenquote who may not have access to the support required to quote passquote Spoken like a true socialist.

The kind of socialist who wants to drag everyone down to the lowest common demoninator so his kind can rule over us.

Socialists don't like people thinking for themselves or to have ambitions above those of the ruling class.

George Orwell would be proud.

Dan, North Leigh says...
11:10am Wed 19 Mar 08

M Kemp wrote:
The reality of the 11+ system is that a high percentage of grammar school attendees have been privately tutored and/or privately educated. It is NOT a test anymore of pure academic ability regardless of background and is NOT equal opportunity to all children. It is a divisive and damaging system to both the educational community and to many quote bright, able childrenquote who may not have access to the support required to quote passquote I wasn't privately educated - you can pick up mock tests and guides from WHSmith, which is what my parents did for me. This costs merely a few pounds - there's no economic barrier stopping kids from passing the 11+, just their own intelligence and the willpower/determinat
ion of them and their parents.

So grow up.

Judith Smith, Westcliff says...
11:27am Wed 19 Mar 08

Horace Wimpole wrote:
The fact that children have to be tutored to prepare for the 11+ is because the standard of education at primary school level is now so abysmal
WRONG. Kids often need tutoring because most of them haven't done three hours of maths, literacy and verbal reasoning exams before. The 11+ is NOT the test it was in our day, please try and remember that.
MR Wimpole.
I have helped 9 children with 11+ tests (unpaid)over the last 4 years and can verify that any child with a half decent education can pass the Maths and ENGLISH (not literacy) tests quite easily. These tests reflect what the child SHOULD know at age 10. The only coaching needed for these subjects is to understand the layout of the test papers. Verbal Reasoning is the only subject which needs intensive training but all the tests are available either free or for a small sum on the web. Anyone without internet access, can buy test papers at newsagents. Yes the 11+ is different from in the past but with adequate prepration a bright child can pass.
The system is not to blame for failing or not well performing schools, the leadership and political will is.

Horace Wimpole, Little Futtock says...
12:02pm Wed 19 Mar 08

Judith, you're arguing with the wrong person, I'm on your side of the debate. I have no beef with the concept of the 11+ or with grammar schools.

OK, I don't think the 11+ in its current form is an appropriate testing method, but that doesn't mean I subscribe to the views espoused here about less well-off kids being at a disadvantage—on that point, as will several others, you are I are in agreement.

LYN F, CANVEY ISLAND says...
2:03pm Wed 19 Mar 08

Belfairs High's head John Duprey would have us weep because "youngsters from poor families are suffering" - their parents are so busy working they can't get the kids to the venues to even take the exams! What an insult to all hard working parents to suggest they would risk their child's whole educational future becuase they don't have the gumption to arrange a day off! Speaking from experience the real cuprits are the PRIMARY SCHOOLS who offer year 6 children precious little support or help in trying for selection. My own son's school gave me no information on how the process worked, what he would need to know, who to contact etc. I had to find out everything myself and tutor my son in the obvious gaps he had in his education to stand a chance of passing. Even when he did the school singularly failed to acknowledge his achievement. How's that for a balance approach! I am a single working class mother who wanted the best for her child so got of my backside and did something about it. The system isn't unfair to poor families - the opportunity is open to everyone - you just have to want it and care about it enough. In my experience you certainly wont get any help from your child's school - but you can do it.

lyn f, canvey island says...
2:31pm Wed 19 Mar 08

FOLLOW UP - Oh and before anybody makes any smarty pants comments I KNOW I have made errors in my text but "off" my backside and "balanced" were made because I was trying to type so quickly and has nothing to do with my Comprehensive Education!

Robert S, Leigh on sea says...
4:28pm Wed 19 Mar 08

I have just read the first two comments. Mr Paterson & Dan are absolutely right. My parents fought to retain Grammar schools way back in the 50's. I went to WHS, my son & daughter went to SHS & WHS respectively. I have no doubt that their academic skills were enhanced by their schooling and they would not have succeeded as well in a comprehensive environment. If every child was introduced to a comprehensive situation they would get exactly what the labour government wants to achieve. That is to say - drag the talented down to average and not encourage over –achievement. Selection is essential to enable above average students to be stimulated – they are our future. The remainder should be encouraged to develop by concentrating on any area of weakness especially reading, writing and numeracy. In many instances the parents need to get involved. It is clear that encouragement at home is half the battle preferably starting at age 5 years old.

Mike Paterson, Bowers Gifford says...
8:04am Thu 20 Mar 08

Firestorm wrote:
Grammar schools are still selecting from the well off sections of society. It is still better education for those who can afford it. Some primary schools are coaching kids for their 11 plus for several years and many parents are paying for their little darlings to be privately taught to give them a better chance. It doesnot give them a better chance, there will be many more intelligent kids who don't get the private tuition in how to pass the exam who are being deprived of the better teachers. grammar schools attract the better teachers, yet the kids who need the better teachers are in the comprehensive schools. If the child is good enough he will excel what ever the school, its the ones who need that bit more who should be getting the preferential treatment
Many people scrimp and save in order to look after their "little darlings".

Some people choose to spend their money on sky movies multi-room, holidays in benidorm, and Nissan Navarras, and enjoy smoking and drinking.

Why not attack those wasters rather than those that put their children first?

As for your comments about selection - what a joke - the process has no way of knowing anything about the wealth of applicants. All children can partake in the eleven plus. Those that meet that particular mark are offered places - simple really and very fair!

By the way, most kids from the wealthiest families are privately educated at Schools like Brentwood, it is only the lucky people of Southend and surrounding areas that can have their children educated to a high level in the state system - thanks to the Grammar Schools (which also drive up the standards of the other schools).

Mike Paterson, Bowers Gifford says...
8:09am Thu 20 Mar 08

Stewart wrote:
Anyone who thinks the 11+ is fair/right must be stupid - WAKE UP
I am wide awake - how is it unfair? I think you should go back to sleep (or the bottle).

Emily, Southend on sea says...
11:49am Fri 21 Mar 08

M Kemp wrote:
The reality of the 11+ system is that a high percentage of grammar school attendees have been privately tutored and/or privately educated. It is NOT a test anymore of pure academic ability regardless of background and is NOT equal opportunity to all children. It is a divisive and damaging system to both the educational community and to many quote bright, able childrenquote who may not have access to the support required to quote passquote I am a pupil at Westcliff High School for Girls and even at 13 I can tell what you are saying is absolute rubbish. The majority of my friends (and many of the people in my year group) neither went to a private school or had a private tutor. Neither do any of us come from particularly well-off backgrounds, yet through sheer hard work we have managed to obtain a place at a school where we are rewarded for this. So should we penalise those who are achieving and want to achieve in order to satisfy some whingey head teachers who should be doing something to improve their own schools rather then criticising the ones that are doing well? You say that it is bringing down those who are currently not performing; have you thought about how abolishing these schools will affect the pupils who are doing well? As many others have said, if you have a drastic difference in ability in classes, either the high or low achievers, or both, will suffer as the pupils in the middle will be concentrated on.

Mojo, at my computer says...
4:20pm Mon 24 Mar 08

Emily wrote:
M Kemp wrote: The reality of the 11+ system is that a high percentage of grammar school attendees have been privately tutored and/or privately educated. It is NOT a test anymore of pure academic ability regardless of background and is NOT equal opportunity to all children. It is a divisive and damaging system to both the educational community and to many quote bright, able childrenquote who may not have access to the support required to quote passquote I am a pupil at Westcliff High School for Girls and even at 13 I can tell what you are saying is absolute rubbish. The majority of my friends (and many of the people in my year group) neither went to a private school or had a private tutor. Neither do any of us come from particularly well-off backgrounds, yet through sheer hard work we have managed to obtain a place at a school where we are rewarded for this. So should we penalise those who are achieving and want to achieve in order to satisfy some whingey head teachers who should be doing something to improve their own schools rather then criticising the ones that are doing well? You say that it is bringing down those who are currently not performing; have you thought about how abolishing these schools will affect the pupils who are doing well? As many others have said, if you have a drastic difference in ability in classes, either the high or low achievers, or both, will suffer as the pupils in the middle will be concentrated on. Well said Emily. The only people who complain about Grammar schools are those not smart enough to pass the tests who have a chip on their shoulder about it and want to drag everyone else down to their level. Nothing wrong with grammars. All children are streamed anyway, it's the way the world works.