Shared spaces still legally the realm of cars, council admits (From Echo)

It is obvious where the pavement ends and the road begins. Most of the city beach area has kerbs anyway.

No it isn't obvious and the Council knows it - which is why they've put all those black balls along the boundary (which are a tripping accident waiting to happen)! Good old Southend Council (or should I say Cabinet as no-one else gets a look in!) - total incompetence and ****-ups as usual!

No it isn't obvious and the Council knows it - which is why they've put all those black balls along the boundary (which are a tripping accident waiting to happen)! Good old Southend Council (or should I say Cabinet as no-one else gets a look in!) - total incompetence and ****-ups as usual!

Please can we have the roundabout back at Victoria Station

Will Mr Holdcroft's opinion change when someone walks into his office wanting to make a claim? Ok there would be a conflict of interest but hypothetically...

Still at last we begin to make headway. They admit they screwed up "a bit". They're not legally shared spaces - they're roads and poorly designed roads at that.

I know I bang on about this but it is worrying that so much money got spent on schemes which don't work and which have only a sketchy legal status.

Andycal 172D wrote:
Will Mr Holdcroft's opinion change when someone walks into his office wanting to make a claim? Ok there would be a conflict of interest but hypothetically...

Still at last we begin to make headway. They admit they screwed up "a bit". They're not legally shared spaces - they're roads and poorly designed roads at that.

I know I bang on about this but it is worrying that so much money got spent on schemes which don't work and which have only a sketchy legal status.

That is your opinion and yes you do bang on about it.

It is also your opinion that the scheme does not work and that is based on what so far ?

Perhaps next year when there is unarguable proof that the scheme is not working THEN and only then there should be concern, until then however hard it sounds the scheme must continue with the understanding that accidents happen as they did before the road change.

The fact is that unless you are stupid it is obvious that you do not step out in front of any car unless it is stationary, and most normal people should know they are either in a road or not.

My only worry is that there are not enough clear view signs when entering the area as a motorist from both direction stating the obvious.

He (Holdcroft) said: “When you think about it, there is not a road in the town which is not shared space...There are hundreds of residential roads which people cross every day without using a specialised crossing."

....I dont think ive ever heard such crap from Holdcroft before (and he says an awful lot of ignorant poppycock!)

He really does take us (the boroughs residents who voted him in) as complete idiots.

He surely doesnt doesnt believe that crap he just spouted either!
Its the dictorial tory thats talking there for sure!


And yes i agree with Baggylovespuds.. bring back Vic Circus roundabout,
I have lost count of the near misses ive seen from the right turn from Queensway into Vic Avenue,
also no one seams to take notice of the no U-turn signs thats for sure! And the shortcut through the bus lane seams to be getting increasingly popular.

What a complete shambles this tory cabinet has made of our towns transport infrastructure.

It is ovious that their should be an official for every person who enters these zones,to take their hand and escort them until they are clear of the area.Or they could use common sense like the rest of us!

Hi so we teach our kids to stop at kerbs and look both ways for traffic, but these shared spaces have no kerbs to stop at... i'm only surprised an accident has not happened sooner...

A few weeks back I stopped to let a school party across this road, about half had crossed when an old twit driver, with a determined look on his face, just kept coming the other way, luckily the teachers were able to pull them back in time! So he knew he was perfectly in his rights to run them down?

This story's headline is dangerously misleading. Marine Parade is part of the public highway. As such ALL vehicular traffic has EQUAL right of way. It is not just the 'realm of cars'.

Tony Cox, the Tory councillor responsible for transport, conceded the shared spaces were defined “in concept” rather than law..... I sure that will be a comfort to the pensioner they drag out front under the wheels of a bus outside Victoria Station.

How many near-misses turning right into Victoria Avenue? The last one I saw looked like a Red Arrows display. How long is it before the 'Patio From Hell' claims its first victim?

There is still enough room to put the roundabout back with some landscape softening trees and grass. The council can keep all the 'nice' grey slabs - there must be somewhere they can put them? Anyone want to suggest where!

Will you left wing luddites ever move on.

Southend is moving on with or without you continual whingers the council do not profess to get everything right but at least they are moving on and up, unlike you bloody lot.

And I am not a Political Party lover they are all naff.

el cabellero, SBC are not moving on and up, they are dragging this town backwards at an astronomical rate, development failure after failure (the one exception is the water feature), quango after quango, closed cabinet dictatorial decision after decision, public consultation after decisions have already been rubber stamped,
council tax increases at maximum capped rates (except for the time they had to back track after no other councils followed suit, proof enough they haven't got they electorates best interests at heart).
Their current folly is to sell off any if not all town centre public carparks for developement the end result being lack of parking but wait, guess what, they also increase parking prices at the same time! (it's cheaper to drive to lakeside for a complete shopping experience than it is to park in Southend for a few hours)
How long have we been waiting for something to happen with the pier??? We must've had dozens of expensive Renaissance Southend consultations, but still nothing (somebody must be benefiting and it certainly ain't the towns residents!)
Pier hill development, What a balls'up that has proven to have been!
Mile after mile of Anna Waite signature palm trees (now all dead) at £600 a pop!
And to top if off with the biggest cockup of all time...Victoria Gateway.

This council has failed, period.
(and while they continue to do so i will continue to express my opinion on it freely)

el caballero de la noche wrote:

Andycal 172D wrote:
Will Mr Holdcroft's opinion change when someone walks into his office wanting to make a claim? Ok there would be a conflict of interest but hypothetically...

Still at last we begin to make headway. They admit they screwed up "a bit". They're not legally shared spaces - they're roads and poorly designed roads at that.

I know I bang on about this but it is worrying that so much money got spent on schemes which don't work and which have only a sketchy legal status.

That is your opinion and yes you do bang on about it.

It is also your opinion that the scheme does not work and that is based on what so far ?

Perhaps next year when there is unarguable proof that the scheme is not working THEN and only then there should be concern, until then however hard it sounds the scheme must continue with the understanding that accidents happen as they did before the road change.

The fact is that unless you are stupid it is obvious that you do not step out in front of any car unless it is stationary, and most normal people should know they are either in a road or not.

My only worry is that there are not enough clear view signs when entering the area as a motorist from both direction stating the obvious.

Thanks el-cab - nice to know the love is still there

ADucksQuack wrote:
This story's headline is dangerously misleading. Marine Parade is part of the public highway. As such ALL vehicular traffic has EQUAL right of way. It is not just the 'realm of cars'.

And you'll keep thinking like that right until the lorry takes you out!

Sir Peter Pantsless the 3rd wrote:
el cabellero, SBC are not moving on and up, they are dragging this town backwards at an astronomical rate, development failure after failure (the one exception is the water feature), quango after quango, closed cabinet dictatorial decision after decision, public consultation after decisions have already been rubber stamped,
council tax increases at maximum capped rates (except for the time they had to back track after no other councils followed suit, proof enough they haven't got they electorates best interests at heart).
Their current folly is to sell off any if not all town centre public carparks for developement the end result being lack of parking but wait, guess what, they also increase parking prices at the same time! (it's cheaper to drive to lakeside for a complete shopping experience than it is to park in Southend for a few hours)
How long have we been waiting for something to happen with the pier??? We must've had dozens of expensive Renaissance Southend consultations, but still nothing (somebody must be benefiting and it certainly ain't the towns residents!)
Pier hill development, What a balls'up that has proven to have been!
Mile after mile of Anna Waite signature palm trees (now all dead) at £600 a pop!
And to top if off with the biggest cockup of all time...Victoria Gateway.

This council has failed, period.
(and while they continue to do so i will continue to express my opinion on it freely)

Well said! I agree totally!

It's a mess especially at more busy times when many cars and people meet in that murklily defined "shared space" when no one has clear idea of who gives way to who. I suppose it's latest updated version of Dodgems.

el caballero de la noche wrote:
Will you left wing luddites ever move on.

Southend is moving on with or without you continual whingers the council do not profess to get everything right but at least they are moving on and up, unlike you bloody lot.

And I am not a Political Party lover they are all naff.

That's because they don't get anything right!

the real crux of the SBC saga is (what do they actually do).. they have outsourced a vast amount of decision making to arms reach companies and consultants. they are temp staff heavy and refuse in most cases to really listen to what we surfs have to say.. Its all about high impact delivery and deniability. this leads me to ask the question who in the helll is running this town?

the real crux of the SBC saga is (what do they actually do).. they have outsourced a vast amount of decision making to arms reach companies and consultants. they are temp staff heavy and refuse in most cases to really listen to what we surfs have to say.. Its all about high impact delivery and deniability. this leads me to ask the question who in the helll is running this town?

the real crux of the SBC saga is (what do they actually do).. they have outsourced a vast amount of decision making to arms reach companies and consultants. they are temp staff heavy and refuse in most cases to really listen to what we surfs have to say.. Its all about high impact delivery and deniability. this leads me to ask the question who in the helll is running this town?

Andycal 172D wrote:
Will Mr Holdcroft's opinion change when someone walks into his office wanting to make a claim? Ok there would be a conflict of interest but hypothetically... Still at last we begin to make headway. They admit they screwed up "a bit". They're not legally shared spaces - they're roads and poorly designed roads at that. I know I bang on about this but it is worrying that so much money got spent on schemes which don't work and which have only a sketchy legal status.

and again you talk rubbish. if the scheme didn't work then no-one would use it.

its gets used by 1000's and 1000's cars a week and has been opened months now with 1 accident where a silly 6 year old was not looking where he was going.

Sir Peter Pantsless the 3rd wrote:
He (Holdcroft) said: “When you think about it, there is not a road in the town which is not shared space...There are hundreds of residential roads which people cross every day without using a specialised crossing." ....I dont think ive ever heard such crap from Holdcroft before (and he says an awful lot of ignorant poppycock!) He really does take us (the boroughs residents who voted him in) as complete idiots. He surely doesnt doesnt believe that crap he just spouted either! Its the dictorial tory thats talking there for sure! And yes i agree with Baggylovespuds.. bring back Vic Circus roundabout, I have lost count of the near misses ive seen from the right turn from Queensway into Vic Avenue, also no one seams to take notice of the no U-turn signs thats for sure! And the shortcut through the bus lane seams to be getting increasingly popular. What a complete shambles this tory cabinet has made of our towns transport infrastructure.

well if you paid attention to what you were doing at vic circus rather than trying to count "near-misses" (no doubt caused by your reckless driving and not paying attention to the road) the world would be a safer place.

please tell me.

the new areas have been open for how many months now with how many accidents and 1000's of cars using it day in day out.

your old news mate, you and your cronies on here who talk utter rubbish day in and day out.

southend is getting better and better and your running out of things to moan about!!!

FACT

el caballero de la noche wrote:
Will you left wing luddites ever move on. Southend is moving on with or without you continual whingers the council do not profess to get everything right but at least they are moving on and up, unlike you bloody lot. And I am not a Political Party lover they are all naff.

well said old chap

Steve1976 wrote:
Hi so we teach our kids to stop at kerbs and look both ways for traffic, but these shared spaces have no kerbs to stop at... i'm only surprised an accident has not happened sooner...

They do have kerbs along the sea front. I've seen them as I drive along. They are the small raised bits that separate the road from the pavement. Not everywhere, but I'd guess at over half, plenty to let anyone who is sane and sober know where to walk.

Steve1976 wrote:
Hi so we teach our kids to stop at kerbs and look both ways for traffic, but these shared spaces have no kerbs to stop at... i'm only surprised an accident has not happened sooner...

how about teach your kids to pay attention to whatever they are doing......

The waite is comming back next year so all will be fixed

The waite is comming back next year so all will be fixed

The waite is comming back next year so all will be fixed

The waite is comming back next year so all will be fixed

woodgrangedrivesoldi
er wrote:

el caballero de la noche wrote:
Will you left wing luddites ever move on. Southend is moving on with or without you continual whingers the council do not profess to get everything right but at least they are moving on and up, unlike you bloody lot. And I am not a Political Party lover they are all naff.

well said old chap

Quite agree. We all know there are a small group of people who contribute to this site, who also sit in wait for the next town development or change so that they can attack the current council. Many of us may have political views but try to judge each issue on it's merits.
Of the four recent major changes, Cuckoo Corner, the seafront, Victoria Avenue/Queensway junction and Progress road, three, at least seem to be working very well, one or two reservations about Progress Road.
As far as the "shared space", is concerned, if the council had quietly made all the changes without publicising this as as shared space, probably little would have been said. It is very obvious that vehicles are present along the seafront, normal road safety rules for pedestrians would avoid any accidents. Crossing an " area", whether it be a road, street, or " shared space" of any sort always involves some risk. Whatever happened to common sense.

PS, forgot say, walking out on to the pavement outside my house involves checking left and right for cyclists on the pavement these days, not a complaint but another instance of a "shared space" where kerbs or signs should not be needed, just normal care.

el caballero de la noche wrote:
Will you left wing luddites ever move on. Southend is moving on with or without you continual whingers the council do not profess to get everything right but at least they are moving on and up, unlike you bloody lot. And I am not a Political Party lover they are all naff.

Strange how we are all Luddites when it comes to criticising chainsaw!!! Oh of course - your blister!

SOUTHEND’S controversial shared space areas are still legally roads, it has been revealed............

.
Which is how most people treat it, in the absence of pedestrian crossings.

openspace wrote:

woodgrangedrivesoldi

er wrote:

el caballero de la noche wrote:
Will you left wing luddites ever move on. Southend is moving on with or without you continual whingers the council do not profess to get everything right but at least they are moving on and up, unlike you bloody lot. And I am not a Political Party lover they are all naff.

well said old chap

Quite agree. We all know there are a small group of people who contribute to this site, who also sit in wait for the next town development or change so that they can attack the current council. Many of us may have political views but try to judge each issue on it's merits.
Of the four recent major changes, Cuckoo Corner, the seafront, Victoria Avenue/Queensway junction and Progress road, three, at least seem to be working very well, one or two reservations about Progress Road.
As far as the "shared space", is concerned, if the council had quietly made all the changes without publicising this as as shared space, probably little would have been said. It is very obvious that vehicles are present along the seafront, normal road safety rules for pedestrians would avoid any accidents. Crossing an " area", whether it be a road, street, or " shared space" of any sort always involves some risk. Whatever happened to common sense.

Well said

So bored of people saying its common sense blah blah and we cross other roads every day without a problem. If that was the case why do we have zebra crossings in the first place?
The fact of the matter is this is a busy area for both cars and pedestrians who need and want to cross the road in view of the amusements on each side, its ridiculous to expect that many people including children to keep walking in the road safely when there are that many cars zooming up and down it.

missroyalterrace wrote:
So bored of people saying its common sense blah blah and we cross other roads every day without a problem. If that was the case why do we have zebra crossings in the first place?
The fact of the matter is this is a busy area for both cars and pedestrians who need and want to cross the road in view of the amusements on each side, its ridiculous to expect that many people including children to keep walking in the road safely when there are that many cars zooming up and down it.

"Zooming"?? The average speed along this stretch is less than 15 mph! The whole point of the road lay-out being as it is is to slow the traffic and in this respect it seems to have worked very well. The only issue with the scheme is that many drivers are not yet stopping to allow pedestrians to cross, a simple sign would hopefully solve this problem, however, even without a sign people will slowly get used to the idea.

missroyalterrace wrote:
So bored of people saying its common sense blah blah and we cross other roads every day without a problem. If that was the case why do we have zebra crossings in the first place?
The fact of the matter is this is a busy area for both cars and pedestrians who need and want to cross the road in view of the amusements on each side, its ridiculous to expect that many people including children to keep walking in the road safely when there are that many cars zooming up and down it.

Are you so devoid of initiative that you cannot cross a road unless there is a zebra crossing painted on it?

I went for a cycle ride along the shared space at city beach this weekend and I will be honest I cannot see what all the fuss is about , the pavement area is light in colour and the road is dark giving a definate road and pavement seperation. There a slopping kerbs on some of the edges which are a different colour again . I am of the mind the masses can use this space without any problems just consideration for others whilst there is all it requires. But Victoria Circus is not so clever the road and paving areas all blending into one with more traffic and buses this area has a higher potential for accident.

No that isnt what i implied at all.
One person trying to cross a road: fine

hundreds of people a day - stupid.

Plus every time ive read an story on here about someone whose been knocked over everyone starts bleating about how the person didnt use the crossing!

Well I wont use Victoria Circus route to Southend and have found other routes which I find better. The only thing is I now always find a parking space on a Saturday easier, is that because less people are actually going to Southend by car or just fed up with the new layouts and go to lakeside and chelmsford instead to do their shopping.

Thousands of people cross roads every day. They do it anywhere they please, perfectly safely and legally. Crossings everywhere are a product of the nanny-state.

It is not difficult to learn how to cross a road, and it is even easier for drivers to learn to drive with due care and attention in a 20mph zone.

woolstone wrote:
Well I wont use Victoria Circus route to Southend and have found other routes which I find better. The only thing is I now always find a parking space on a Saturday easier, is that because less people are actually going to Southend by car or just fed up with the new layouts and go to lakeside and chelmsford instead to do their shopping.

SBC raised parking charges by 25% in the borough. They introduced a congestion creation scheme at Victoria Circus, they closed the Farringdon Avenue car park, they are introducing parking charges for the entire seafront. As a Southend resident it is now cheaper for me to travel to Basildon and shop.

I have a few observations and experiences of the new road layouts in Southend. I am a cab driver so have driven on these roads quite a few times.
Southend seafront, ie Marine Parade, I have yet to see a car stop to let pedestrians cross. I stop myself, but find the traffic going in the opposite direction will not stop. Pedestrians look confused and very anxious, especially when they have children with them. I find that stopping to give way to pedestrians results in drivers behind me becoming impatient, beeping their horns, and one time overtaking me causing the pedestrians to hurriedly retreat back to the pavement.
Victoria Circus, traffic backs up more than when we had a roundabout, often waiting at a red light when there is no traffic coming from another direction. One can no longer come back on oneself, eg, Boston road to Queensway, back up the Queensway to London Road. Unhappy customers, but not much one can do, just take the shortest possible route. You will never have a quicker clearing "junction" than a roundabout.
The shared space at Vic Circus - I nearly had a collision with 2 cyclists. I had dropped a customer off at Victoria Train station, and exited the area via the "free space" road, to go back on Vic Avenue. As I entered the free space road, 2 cyclists came rapidly across the large patio area, one managed to swerve around my vehicle and the other stopped in front of my vehicle. I stopped also - please note, I was turning my vehicle right to stop at the red light which would lead me onto Via Ave, so was crawling. Now this incident as I see it was neither the cyclists' or my fault. The cyclists simply did not realise this was "shared space". No harm done, just a little shaken up.
Progress Road - I have been through this junction at all times of day and have found that during rush hour, the traffic clears much quicker going in and out of Southend. A definite improvement. Going from Progress Road, across the A127 to The Fairway was a little confusing the first time, if you get the wrong lane you end up going down the A127 into Southend.
I personally believe decisions should be based on fact, with local residents and road users views, opinions and experiences listened to and evaluated. Let's hope we ALL do what is right.

Add to all this problem with the cyclists who do not use the cycle path because pedestrians are on it crossing from their cars. It is a disaster zone.

They have no bells, no lights and probably no brakes anyway.

jolllyboy wrote:
Add to all this problem with the cyclists who do not use the cycle path because pedestrians are on it crossing from their cars. It is a disaster zone.

They have no bells, no lights and probably no brakes anyway.

You have personally checked EVERY bicycle on the seafront have you? No, you're just spouting unsubstantiated cobblers, aren't you.